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Westmeath school gets temporary injunction banning a suspended teacher from it's premises

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,164 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    He ignored the suspension. You must have an idea that nobody else could possibly have thought of? Please share it with us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭floorpie


    It's not my idea. Just think how any business would keep an employee out that shouldn't be there, or handle a similar situation.

    You might start with conversations/discussions/negotiations, if the school can't handle it they may need outside help such as counsellors, arbitrators. In a bad case you might need security, an extreme case might need Gardaí. An injunction + imprisonment is off the wall.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Maybe the person you really need to ask these questions, is Burke.

    After all, it was he who decided to take this "approach" to his suspension, and the injunction.

    It wasn't the school's decision to imprison him - it was the Judge - after Burke told them directly that he would continue to break the order.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,409 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The fact is. This fellah can leave prison at any time he likes. Just agree to abide by the court injunction. Stop turning up at the school to harass that kid

    I wouldn't be surprised if he decides to go on hunger strike. He's a zealot, maybe not his fault due to his upbringing, but he is where he is.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's only one approach that would work against Enoch and that's having security at the school. That's a far more extreme resort and is pretty dreadful for the students. In relation to how a business would handle an employee coming to work in spite of a suspension. That's when a company has every right to call the gardai... Which leads to an injunction and the exact same scenario that's happening here.


    You can refer to arbitrators etc but Enoch had a clear goal in this scenario and he was gonna keep on showing up. He's made clear that he plans to do so again if he's released.


    In terms of appeals processes, that was all open to him. Instead he made it into a performance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    They could stand down the injunction yes and then it goes back to Burke continuously showing up. Which again disrupts the school having to move classes etc. Why are you trying to downplay his actions?

    The primary goal of the school board in all this is student welfare. Burke was jeopardising all that repeatedly so the school board was left with no choice.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    This last quote of yours is very interesting:

    Issues raised by Burke, the judge added, were matters for either the full hearing of the dispute, or at the hearing of the disciplinary process commenced by the school against the teacher.

    Either of these hearings will now have to go into the "issues raised by Burke", so it looks like he will get to have them discussed; and if either the "full hearing" or the disciplinary process doesn't allow discussion, he will likely have grounds to appeal. Assuming the "full hearing" is in court, the judge there might be able to trump what this judge said; but the school disciplinary process will almost certainly be bound by this comment of the judge's, or be at risk of Burke taking them to court.

    It looks to me as though Burke will have have a couple of opportunities more for fame.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭floorpie


    There's only one approach that would work against Enoch and that's having security at the school. That's a far more extreme resort and is pretty dreadful for the students.

    I think it would have been less extreme and less dreadful to hire security, yes. It wouldn't have ended up in court and media, for a start. Even this would be a last resort though. There were no doubt more amicable ways to solve it than force/restraint.



  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You think that security if hired would not have to have used reasonable fotce (as legally allowed) to prevent him entering the school property in breach of the injunction?

    It ended up in court and to a latter extent the media because Burke insisted that it did.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So you think watching security toss him out on his ear every day would have been less disruptive for students?

    That he wouldn't have made a media circus out of that too?

    You're either being completely naive or deliberately obtuse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,164 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    You can't have an amicable anything with a religious zealot. They are always right and everybody else is always wrong.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Crazy thread. I can't believe people are happy that a person in Ireland is locked up indefinitely, for the reason of sitting in an empty classroom (in breach of a court order not to sit there).

    He can walk out the second he agrees to adhere to the injunction. His incarceration is his to control.

    The problem here is that the injunction requires that he agrees to be suspended, but he's had no fair hearing with regards to this suspension, no representation, no right to reply.

    He is suspended with pay pending a disciplinary hearing on 14th Sept. There is absolutely nothing unusual in being suspended with a hearing /review / etc happening at a later date.

    There are plenty of avenues for him to take here between legislation on industrial relations, unfair dismissals, employment equality, defamation and so on

    No doubt he'll take them, his family are known for it. He'll lose though, his family are known for that too



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    You think the media wouldnt have reported on security effectively locking a teacher out of school? And that having security would have caused no disruptions? Seriously?????

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    You are probably right there. However this ends for Burke, the school may well regret how they decided to deal with the issue. They have got the spotlight turned on themselves. It was hardly on anyone's radar, but we now all know of this elite school's existence and that it charges €9.5k - €11k in boarding fees.

    The CoI is generally fairly discreet. A few years ago when a scandal rocked King's Hospital School, the matter was buried fairly quickly. It looks as though the situation may not be dealt with so expeditiously on this occasion



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    i believe you're reading this incorrectly.


    it seems clear that this is the judge informing burke that his comments simply weren't relevant to the hearing regarding his contempt and that their considered judgement acknowledged that he had due process available to him of which he had simply not availed.

    this would all be very much in line with how a court- and certainly the WRC- would tend to view arguments being made to them if the person making them had simply not followed the process which would have been in place

    @floorpie "just asking questions" is taking a similar tack to the previous posters keeping this thread alive by musing fuzzily about the ethos of the school and what amazing possibilities there were there for enoch to engineer a stunning victory.

    it's all rubbish, and a refusal to acknowledge the simplicity of the timeline here and to continuously speculate about the issues that simply aren't going to arise is to my mind a clear case of wish-fulfilment trying to talk an alternative reality into existence - up until, of course, enoch either recants or is sacked after the school has a chance to follow the process.


    there is simply nothing unfair or incorrect about any action taken by the school this far and any look at the respective behaviours demonstrates that the people advising and acting for the school have been scrupulously following the designated path


    anyone coming up with any opinion otherwise is playing silly buggers imo



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭floorpie


    I presume that this ended up in media because it was before the High Court. Maybe it would've been picked up regardless, I don't know.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You really need to go actually read an article about the whole situation. You're making a fool of yourself due to the lack of knowledge you have on it.

    It's honestly embarrassing to watch



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh he'll be given every chance to have his say and I look forward to laughing at, what will undoubtedly be, his batshit loopy bigoted ravings.

    They won't have any impact on the outcomes of his chosen route.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It’s not my quote, it’s the judge’s. It seems that he sees possibilities of Mr Burke making his case on ethos and religious belief. I am not so sure but I have on the basis of the knowledge of what was said in court alerted the thread repeatedly to that possibility. I doubt he will win even if his arguments are heard. But the existence of a two track process of the guiding rules of education is what enables the argument to be made. It is past time that was ended.

    Unfortunately he may get more fame. For the sake of the vulnerable student firstly but also for Mr Burke however vilified he deserves to be I hope he does not. I keep hoping for an intervention to remove this from public view entirely.



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  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Something floorpie is ignoring is the positive effect it may be having on the students. You break the rules, you get suspended. You ignore a court injuction, you go to jail. That could be a very important lesson for some of the pupils of that school, and many other schools around the country.

    As others have said, this is all in Enochs hands. He can walk out of prison right now if he agrees to stop showing up at that school. He won't agree to that. OK Enoch, do you want porridge for breakfast, or porridge?



  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A lot of your posts come across as having low self esteem talking about elites etc, probably not the case but just the way that they read.

    Also the fees aren't too far out there for boarding going by two boarding schools that I know of, that charge close to 10,000 for a day boarder, over 18,000 for a five day boarder and over 24,000 for a seven day boarder plus registration fees and other fees on top of that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Please explain whatever I'm mistaken about, I'm open to hearing

    It's honestly embarrassing to watch

    I'm not being rude to anybody so I don't know why you feel the need to be



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    you aren't open to even the most basic relevant facts on what's happened here, thats been demonstrated over the last few pages.

    it could be more easily treated as innocent except you are clearly panting to understate burke's considered and deliberate role in driving every part of this once he was told to do something he didnt like at work



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Something floorpie is ignoring is the positive effect it may be having on the students.

    The thread seems to be focussing on the injunction so I'm only discussing this aspect. Personally I don't think it serves students well to see a teacher going to Mountjoy, and I don't think it serves the specific student well to have this thrashed out in public.

    you aren't open to even the most basic relevant facts on what's happened here

    What basic relevant facts?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    frankly I've no faith that you have any interest in hearing them again, your posts today have been a litany of either incorrect statements or very pointed questions about how enoch has been so hard done by- and at every juncture people have told you your erroneous assumptions.

    i don't tbh find it in any way credible that you're posting in this thread in good faith



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Yes I'm aware that the quote is the judge's, but in this instance you quoted the judge's quote ...

    I'm pretty sure that Burke will lose any case he makes, in that I agree with you. But I'd expect the judge's comment to be used to the full by Burke to include the matter of ethos in any hearing, and if ignored, or ruled irrelevant, he will surely come out and say "But the learned judge said ...". And move on to the next level.

    I don't see it as validating Burke, but it may carry some weight in stating a case.

    Personally, I'm really looking forward to the two sides locking horns as to what a CoI ethos actually means. Wouldn't it be funny if the CoI ended up admitting that the bible is just fairytales and of no real importance. It would sort of cut the ground from under their feet as a "serious" religion.

    Moreover, while the organisation in the south is to a large degree a sort of freemasonry where a significant portion of the better off in Irish society meet socially and do deals that other sorts might do on the golf course, in the north it's reach is wider in social terms and plenty of the members are evangelical xtians like Burke.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Interesting that you feel qualified to comment on my mental state.

    And even more fascinating that you appear to think that it's in any way normal to have €10k p.a. lying around to spend on your child's education. And justifying it because King's Hos, for instance, charges double.

    I'm curious as to what word you might use to describe people with that sort of money to throw around, if you don't like the internationally-used word Elite. "Our betters" maybe; or "the ascendency"?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m not sure how Mr Burke could move the focus onto whether or not a CoI school policy of inclusion is contrary to CoI ethos. I think that might only be possible in judicial review of the entire process with a focus on whether the process of legally creating school policies was followed completely ie if the Patron had sight of and approved a policy. And perhaps that he was afforded no opportunity to put his case to the Patron or Board of the school in regard to a policy at variance (in his view) with ethos.

    To even ventilate the whole ethos thing in court would be enormously embarrassing for religions. I dare say Mr Burke would have scriptural ammunition to hand and the sight of him harrying the Archbishop of Armagh under oath in the witness stand….As you say the whole charade (and that’s wider than CoI) might become visible.

    My key point is that religious ethos needs to be removed from schools so that it is definitive that the policies are governed by civil law



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have explained to you how to resolve your ignorance on the subject, read literally any article



This discussion has been closed.
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