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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Here is what precipitation has been like in Pakistan for the last 80 years. Which one of these years was caused by CO2?

    What else is happening in Pakistan, well it turns out they could really benefit from burning natural gas rather than timber.

    Pakistan floods aggravated by deforestation and other ecological mistakes

    Further downstream, in Sindh province for example, the Indus River has been "choked" by farmers who did not leave any space where additional water could have gone, explains Khan.

    "All along the Indus, in the south there used to be very thick riverine forest. And over the years, people have cut it down and they started crops, because it is very fertile land. This was government-owned land, but the government started giving it out on lease to landowners."

    2021 -  Deforestation hampering Pakistan’s climate policy

    At the time of independence, Pakistan’s total forest cover was 33%. By 2015 it had dropped to 5%. Moreover, in 2010, tree cover in Pakistan was 648,000 hectares, or just 0.74% of total land area. In 2020, Pakistan lost 69.2 hectares of tree cover, equal to 19.6 kilotons of carbon-dioxide (CO2) emissions.


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    live on flood plains then complain about the water. Did not some damn or reservoir burst. Bit like building a house in tornado ally then shocked the house blows away. One thing you never hear the greens talk about is human encroachment into areas. Take California they built into the areas where the fires start so no where for the fire to burn out. Same in Australia. Fires in Sydney 2 hours away skiing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    We have exceeded safe levels of warming. We are locked in to dangerous climate change. Ask anyone in Pakistan today, they will agree

    Actually, they won't. There are people in Pakistan who point out the human factors (and failings) which exacerbated the flooding. I don't endorse everything in this video, but it includes some relevant references:




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An interesting one, just happened today



    Energy Ministers from the members of the North Seas Energy Cooperation (NSEC) and the European Commission have today (12 September) announced a significant increase in their collective ambition in the deployment of offshore renewable energy. At their Ministerial Meeting in Dublin, under the Irish Co-Presidency of NSEC, the NSEC ministers have – for the first time – agreed aggregate, non-binding offshore renewable energy targets for the maritime area of the entire NSEC region.

    The nine NSEC countries have agreed to reach at least 260GW of offshore wind energy by 2050. This will represent more than 85% of the EU-wide ambition of reaching 300GW by 2050 as set out in the EU strategy for offshore renewable energy.

    Speaking at the Ministerial meeting, Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Eamon Ryan said:

    "In Ireland alone our sea area is seven times our landmass. The North Atlantic and North Sea comprise some of the windiest locations on the globe. It is our greatest collective resource of continuous energy and it is momentous that we have agreed today to be ambitious in our targets, as a collective. Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine and the consequential energy price shock and security of supply crisis has shown us how crucial it is that we move away, as quickly as possible, from our reliance on expensive and ransomed fossil fuels. It has also shown us how important unity across the European Union has been in responding to this crisis. When it comes to realising the potential of offshore wind, again, it is best that we work in unity, that we set agreed targets, and that we operate as a collective. With this approach, we can provide assurances to householders and businesses – in our own countries and across Europe – that firstly, Europe will be energy independent, and secondly, that these new renewable energy sources and resultant hydrogen from our seas will be fairly shared and, critically, will be affordable."

    Welcoming the new targets, the European Commissioner for Energy, Kadri Simson said:

    "Today’s commitment is a great example of the kind of regional cooperation that the Commission envisaged in our Offshore Renewable Energy Strategy. It is impressive that the target agreed by nine NSEC countries constitutes more than 85% of the EU-wide ambition we outlined two years ago. The green energy transition has only become more urgent since Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The acceleration of renewables deployment is one of the three pillars of the REPowerEU Plan to end our dependence on Russian fossil fuels. Increasing renewable energy will not only help to improve the sustainability of our energy sector, it will improve our security of supply and the affordability of energy – two challenges that we are facing in the EU at the moment."



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    400 ppm is incredibly low. It's been as high as 7,000 ppm, though the median is probably more like 2,500. The last really big peak was about 2,800 ppm when the global average temperature was about 24° - just before the temperature plummeted by about 8°.

    Climate model predictions for Australia:

    "The multi-model results project significant increases in all the drought hazard metrics, except frequency, with larger changes in the SSMI compared to SPI. The more severe drought hazard under climate change is apparent over a larger area than previously indicated, particularly in southern and eastern Australia."https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212094720300645

    What's really happeneing?

    "2021 breaks records for the coolest and wettest year in Australia in years"

    "Australians are most likely in for a wetter end to the year than usual, as a third consecutive La Niña event is predicted to hit.

    Australia has already experienced back-to-back La Niña years in 2020 and 2021, bringing heavy downpours and flooding to much of the country.

    But the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) has warned people in the Southern Hemisphere to brace for yet another La Niña summer.

    “The stubborn La Niña event is expected to last until at least the end of the year, impacting weather and climate,” it said on Wednesday.

    “It’s this century’s first ‘triple-dip La Niña.”

    WMO predicts the weather event will continue over the next six months, with a 70 per cent chance in September-November 2022 but gradually decreasing to 55 per cent in December-February 2022/2023." https://7news.com.au/weather/australian-weather/australians-warned-a-triple-dip-la-nia-event-will-last-until-the-end-of-the-year-c-8083181

    So much for that model and Australia turning into a fire ravaged dust bowl which we were hearing about as the usual climate catastrphism response to the bush fires in 2018

    So much for 'experts' predicting the future:

    "28 Aug 2018: We need to think about being prepared all year round for fires — rather than wait for the fire season to be declared, people need to be prepared for a fire at any time of the year," Dr Thornton said."

    Or maybe not.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    There are always multiple factors that affect things like flooding, but undoubtedly climate change has played a key role in the current crises

    The region was baked with extremely severe heatwaves with temperatures exceeding 50c in some places. This caused faster than usual glacial melt which caused some glacial lakes to burst through their ice walls.

    The rain fall that caused the flooding was unprecedented. For every degree of warming, air can hold 7% more moisture, and it was almost 10 degrees hotter than average in Pakistan prior to these floods



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Average precipitation per year is not the right metric when the climate is changing to extended droughts followed by severe flash flooding.

    Pakistan had an extremely hot and dry spring and then the monsoons arrived and dumped 3 times the normal amount of rain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    400ppm of co2 is not 'incredibly low' Humans evolved in an atmosphere of about 280ppm

    7000ppm is not compatible with human biochemistry, atmospheric concentrations above 1000ppm causes cognitive impairment, bone decalcification and Kidney damage

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0323-1

    Droughts and infernos followed by devastating flooding. The Australians sure are benefiting from climate change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Wow. This CO2 is mighty stuff, not only can it make plants grow, limestone, cement and dry ice, but now you are telling me it causes extended droughts and flash flooding? How in the world do scientists account for past instances of extended droughts and flash flooding?

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Oh dear is right can you answer the question or not ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Yes it does good to see an actual fact from a green.....Did you hear Conor skehan this morning on newstalk he basically said the greens are all full of shite and a bunch of spoofers who live in la la land. First time I heard it on main stream media, I think it is just the start of it and ye will all be back in your box within 12 months



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just listened to it there. Pauline O’Reilly isn’t living in the real world



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Like the rest of the greens, green hydrogen ! Ye may as well be looking for a unicorn ffs



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    For as long as there is no decent feed-in-tariff system in place - people won't and should not believe a shred of the green agenda, even if it's real.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭Nermal


    You guys used to be noticeably careful to add a disclaimer to grandiose claims: that specific weather events in themselves could not be linked to long-term predictions of climate change. It diluted the message, but it was scientific honesty.

    When did you stop doing that?

    How soon after that did you then begin to explicitly make those links?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Nonsense. Fairy tale make believe waffle.

    You seems to be purposely ignoring 4 minerals I mentioned which are essential to your EV's for everyone dream. There is not enough of them and their extraction is environmentally one of the most damaging. Even your imaginary "clean grid" comes at enormous cost. There is simply no way this can be achieved unless population will be dramatically reduced. But who knows, maybe that is a part of the plan too albeit not much discussed for obvious reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Sure. Like the boom in Silvermines where people to this day feel that boom literally in their bones. There is a reason why mining of nearly everything was "offshored" to third world countries. It would be quite impossible to open any mine here which will have to adhere to all regulations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    Geothermal at scale only works in places like Iceland.

    At issue is the whole question of what energy is, it is the capacity to cause change in the world i.e. in the scientific sense to do work. The challenge is the energy varies in both quality and quantity. You need fuel to generate energy and to support modern Irish society this fuel must be of high quality, i.e. structured so that it has the potential to do a lot of work. Then you get into the second law of thermodynamics, entropy and disorder, whereby greater disorder equals greater entropy equals less work. Sources like nuclear fission, coal and gas are highly ordered and they have the potential to do work on demand, this is not the case with wind and solar and as a consequence both sources will always need to be heavily subsidised and to boot they are low quality and will not function without a high quality backup system.

    The problem is green policies aim to restrict energy consumption and we ave reacted to that in the West by outsourcing our CO2 production. One country in particular has been increasing its energy use, propping up Western consumption with exports and giving the greens a false sense of well-being that we are reducing our carbon footprint. That country is, of course, China, you can also count South East Asia in general. So while green policies have us domestically on an energy starvation diet, Chinese energy consumption has increased by over 50 per cent in recent decades and its electricity consumption has increased by 200 per cent, overtaking the USA by a large margin. China uses over 90 per cent fossil fuels and nuclear. All that effort and expense has been for nothing if your intention is to reduce CO2 molecules in the atmosphere.

    Hidden by Chinese production and their exports, green policy makers are indulging themselves in a delusion that they can build an energy generation system using 100% low density, thermodynamically unsound renewables. The consequences of this are obvious if you want to look, and eventually when the reserve generation that allows us to do work on demand is removed, it will be too late.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Wait do you mean tapping into active lava tubes ? Or magma depending on how far you drill. If you think there against fracking wait till they hear about lava 😀



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,355 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Planes taking off every two minutes from Dublin airports new runway.


    Climate emergency? Nah just tax the little man.


    Let the big boys have all the fun.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Exactly, whatever about Ireland, and to a lesser extent, the UK - there should be no internal flights across much of the EU and intercity travel can and should be done by high speed rail. Ireland has no link to the European rail network, the UK does. Flying London-Paris with fuel free of carbon taxes whilst a rail link is there smacks of lunacy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    You're either winding me up or didn't watch the video. Those exact points are all addressed and debunked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Rebutted does not mean refuted. I did genuinely watch that video but it is ridiculously politicised. Whatever about corruption in Pakistan, the government didn't cause the worst monsoon season ever recorded in Pakistan (2022 is very likely to exceed the previous record 2010 season by the time it's over) but even it it's not the worst flooding since records began, the fact that it's happening in the same year as such extreme drought and heatwaves in the first half of the year shows that this is not normal weather. Lurching from extreme to extreme, and not just in Pakistan, but in multiple continents all experiencing extreme weather events at the same time.

    It takes willful ignorance to not see what is going on here. Steele does what he always does. Throws out a load of 'facts' and then just pretends that those facts and political statements are a coherent analyses.

    Its the same thing that happens in the weather forum every time an new extreme record is broken. 'It's the synoptics' they say, but they never consider the fact that the synoptics are driven by climate change. These events are rare because it takes a lot of ducks to line up in a row to produce these kinds of rare events, but when you make one or more of the parameters more likely, you increase the risk of that rare event occuring.

    Its like saying 'The chances of someone banging their head on the door frame are really low so there's no need for me to make the door taller', and then renting the house to a team of basketball players. You still need the other stuff to go wrong, like they need to not be paying attention, the light needs to be poor or the sun in their eyes, but the fact that everyone's now taller than the door frame makes the chance of someone knocking themselves out going through the door much higher than before.

    Steele talks about 'extreme floods' being common in Pakistan. these are weasel words, because an extreme flood can mean lots of different things, and the flooding in Pakistan this year were on a different scale to what used to be considered an extreme flood.

    Post edited by Akrasia on


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I think this poster was referring to the gyrotron. Its a MM wave technology used for superheating plasma to create the conditions necessary for a fusion reaction that was developed by the Russians and is now being used in Fusion reactor experiments. The technology is commercially available up to 2MW in power and it can vaporise rocks and because it is not impeded by dust or gases, it can be used to bore very deep holes and is not affected by the heat or pressures found deep underground (in theory at least)

    There is a MIT startup called Quaise who are planning their first demo well down to about 10km in depth in 2023/2024

    The idea is you could drill a hole down to about 20km deep where you can access temperatures above 500c, enough to superheat water which can be used to drive a turbine

    Its a very interesting idea, but lots of hurdles to overcome, although the Quaise people seem to think they're on to something.

    The idea is to build these wells next to old fossil fuel plants where the infrastructure can be re-used and power with the superheated steam coming from the wells instead of the furnace heating water

    Its something to keep an eye on, but not proven tech by any means, so we shouldn't be relying on it and need to presume it's 20+ years away from being commercial



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    What is the deepest hole bored with this so far?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Not very deep at all, the gyrotrons are proven technology, but to allow deep holes to be bored, there are some steps that need to be taken first to develop the control devices and the rigs and monitoring sensors, and then there's the issue of what happens to the mass of the rocks that are being vaourized, that needs to be evacuated which I'm guessing will be a non trivial problem. And the risk that the pressure could collapse the wells at the depths needed to superheat the water, and would they be capable of withstanding the pressure from the steam within the well, 20km is a long way to go, drilling the well is only step one, reliably getting the energy efficiently out from such a deep narrow well will also require time

    In theory it works, but it's a long way from being ready for the mainstream.

    Although it may be more feasible than fusion reactors given that the expensive part is boring the well, but after that, presuming it's stable, we would get constant reliable energy anywhere in the world regardless of their location

    It's not a silver bullet despite all of the press releases and the hype about it on youtube



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Just to follow up on my previous question about who funds ABP and what department do they get their funding from, I found this on the citizens information site:

    The Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government appoints up to 9 other Board members. Normally, Board members are proposed by 4 groups of organisations representing professional, environmental, development, local government, rural and local development and general interests. Board members are appointed by the Minister. Sometimes, one member of the Board can be a civil servant appointed by the Minister. Board members normally hold office for 5 years and can be re-appointed for a second or subsequent term.


    So it would seem Darragh o Brien is the line minister in charge of the appointing of ABP and I would presume the funding of this independent body of which so many decisions go through.

    This is the bottleneck that needs to be addressed if we are to get any volume of infrastructure built in this country anytime soon.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is the bottleneck that needs to be addressed if we are to get any volume of infrastructure built in this country anytime soon.

    I don't think anyone would disagree but I would add that resourcing throughout all systems related to planning and development is an issue whether its planning depts in councils, the courts, inspectors, etc.

    Every single one of those and others, are severely understaffed which is why we see it taking months for planning applications, years for appeals and so on. The only reason we can't go through all stages and have final decisions within 3-6 months, including any and all appeals, is staffing.



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