Westmeath school gets temporary injunction banning a suspended teacher from it's premises

13-09-2022 1:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610395#Comment_119610395

I find the aggression very odd but you do you. Essentially you are restating what I wrote. The circular allows for suspension pending investigation ( I actually quoted the sentence) and Mr Burke seems from media report to be arguing that that provision is itself unconstitutional as it imposes a significant penalty without right of Defence. I also said “it seem unlikely that such a provision would be made by the civil service if it had not already been tested. We will know on Wednesday.” In the terms you use above the Defence after accusation and suspension is inadequate to Mr Burke as a penalty has been imposed already and an unanswered argument presented as the basis for that penalty. You do understand that that seems to be Mr Burke’s argument and not mine?

Quite how you get from that to the statement to “before declaring a massive potential issue favoring “ is beyond reason but as I said you do you.

What you declare as “transparent” is just your own imagined version of what I wrote.

Tivoli1300 · 13-09-2022 5:21am

I disagree. It is easy to dislike Burke his views are extreme and unfashionable. However, suspension for disagreeing your boss on a matter of conscience is an extreme and disproportionate step.

The Department’s disciplinary procedure has graded steps involving the right to be clearly informed, the right to respond and be accompanied. The school may have a case to answer also. It is pretty incendiary to go straight to suspension / gross misconduct for raising his objections to neutral pronouns even in a public place.

As to the instruction / a critical issue will be whether the school had a policy in place and in/service training on gender pronouns, teacher accommodations and student rights. There are equality rights in respect of religion also. The school could not have been unaware of Burke’s views - his Twitter feed, demeanour etc. He was very publicly against gay marriage. He was never going to find this request easy. Why not discuss with him first, find a compromise/ he didn’t even teach this kid so why even involve him?

Tow · 13-09-2022 6:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119609916#Comment_119609916

She being the former Principal, the student was not taught by Burke so he did not have to talk to her. Assuming Burke had the common sense to keep his mouth shut, but this is not the Burke's way. He is educated enough to know that COI views are flexible and will adhere to the laws of the land. Have you noticed how Charles became King and not a word said (anymore) about a divorced man becoming the head of the COE.

Ave Sodalis · 13-09-2022 7:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610531#Comment_119610531

Once again, he was not suspended for his views. His views were already known as he had made them clear during the school year. What you are saying that school should have done, is exactly what the school tried to do.

He was suspended for making a show of and humiliating the student at a public event, and then going on to harass his boss until he had to be physically stopped (during which he was reminded that he should go about this in an more appropriate way).

You've blamed the school for the things Burke did himself, not the school.

Fandymo · 13-09-2022 8:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610565#Comment_119610565

Henry VIII will blow your mind

Annasopra · 13-09-2022 9:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610531#Comment_119610531

Put it this way. If in your job you decided to publicly remonstrate your manager in front of colleagues and customers about your disagreement on a matter of company policy and you followed this up by tackling your manager again to such an extent that others had to intervene I have no doubt you would be suspended pending investigation. This painting the schools actions as extreme and disproportionate in order to excuse Burke and downplay his actions is hilarious really.

TaurenDruid · 13-09-2022 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610460#Comment_119610460

You are really arguing that suspension is unconstitutional?

It's a penalty open, and used, throughout the public service, and has been since the foundation of the state.

You can't be suspended for nothing, on a whim - there has to be a case to answer. If there is a case to answer - even suspicion of a case - then it's incumbent on an employer to temporarily remove someone from their position while the full facts are ascertained. Not to do so would be irresponsible - leaving a Garda with access to evidence, a social worker with access to vulnerable people, a healthcare worker with access to patients.

Burke might well argue this, but the Burke family have already demonstrated on multiple occasions that their interpretation of the law is out of kilter with society at large's interpretation.

13-09-2022 9:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610827#Comment_119610827

This captures the nub of the issue as an industrial relations issue and the fact that Mr Burke’s actions now have him in a legal process that is a defined employment rules process and law.

To Mr Burke company policy is actually the Bible.

Please remember that this is Mr Burke’s view and not mine.

I would add that second level schools, in particular voluntary secondary schools, have had somewhat unique approaches to their understanding of how organizations work and that employees from other sectors would be surprised/amazed at the very firmly held and completely wrong beliefs of some teachers about roles of governors (boards) and management.

There will be many “take aways” from this episode and I hope more people will see that one has to be ending religious control of schools via patrons and their legally required ethos and characteristic spirit statements.

TaurenDruid · 13-09-2022 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610531#Comment_119610531

Burke has a Twitter feed? How did I not know this?!

It's @EnochBurke, apparently.

Hmm. Good job he's not an English teacher. Doesn't know what the word fulsome means...

13-09-2022 10:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610531#Comment_119610531

However, suspension for disagreeing your boss on a matter of conscience is an extreme and disproportionate step.

This line alone shows how ill informed you are on the topic. Might I suggest that you go read up on it before you try to lessen the effect this man has had on the welfare of a child

13-09-2022 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610531#Comment_119610531

Oh ffs, how many times does it need to be repeated - He wasn't suspended for a disagreement with his boss.

He was suspended for the pretty incendiary manner in which he raised his objections by causing a very public scene at a school event, attended by students, parents, past pupils and staff - where he followed the Principal around, harassing her loudly to the point where others had to intervene and stand between him and the Principal to get him to stop.

Also, he had representation with him at the meeting with the school - in the form of his sister Ammi, who is a solicitor (currently unemployed).

Also, the school has a published policy of inclusion towards LGBTQ+ students on its website.

Read the timeline posted earlier by @[Deleted User]. There were also meetings and emails back and forth between he, the principal and the vice-principal before he decided to go nuclear at a public school event. This man doesn't know the meaning of the word compromise.

13-09-2022 11:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610827#Comment_119610827

I'm repeatedly amazed how some posters and people on twitter, continue to ignore Burke's actions.

As well as the public confrontation of the prinipal at a public event, after being suspended, he continued to show up at the school. One source says he would sit in his empty class room for the times of his classes.

If the whatabouters could defend those actions then we could have a sensible debate.

EOQRTL · 13-09-2022 11:22am

I don't agree with Burke but i do very much respect and admire him for standing up for what he believes in no matter the outcome. Something that is sadly missing in today's society.

13-09-2022 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611391#Comment_119611391

I don't respect how he went about it.

13-09-2022 11:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611391#Comment_119611391

You admire him for what exactly?

his lack of consideration for the welfare of a child at the school?

His humiliation of said child at not one but two school events?

His harassment of the principal?

His receipt of a suspension?

His refusal to adhere to the direction of a court injunction and instead deciding to harass the entire school?

Is it just one of those or a few?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-09-2022 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610994#Comment_119610994

Can't imagine he's generating much new content at the moment

13-09-2022 11:54am

The Burke family are the strangest, most vexatious people on the planet, bogger Ireland from a former epoch at its worst. All I can think is that they must have had a very disturbed upbringing. As long as they are about they will stir up trouble. Having said that, I do admire people in general who are not afraid stick their heads about the parapet of popular opinion.

ohnonotgmail · 13-09-2022 12:00pm

12 pages in and it still needs to be explained to some posters why this guy ended up where he did. It probably explains why so many gobshites get elected in this country.

Tivoli1300 · 13-09-2022 12:03pm

Get off your high horse- he is entitled to due process and fair procedures regardless of his views. The head of the school handed him s report which wAs not written by an independent party - it seems to have been written by herself without any input from him / one sided no? and which provided the basis for escalation to level 4 / gross negligence suspension pending an management disciplinary hearing.

There is a system of informal warnings escalating to written warnings incorporating appeals and impartial third parties for a reason. it is called fair procedure/due process.

kippy · 13-09-2022 12:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611561#Comment_119611561

There's ways and means to stick your head above the parapet of popular opinion that don't involve the types of actions this guy has taken over the past number of months.

floorpie · 13-09-2022 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611435#Comment_119611435

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611177#Comment_119611177

You're flitting between issue to suit your own point of view. For the last few days you maintained that this had nothing to do with the pronoun issue (and therefore the child) and was rather solely related to his behaviour around the suspension and injunction. You're now talking about the child.

If you want to talk about discrimination against the child, you then need to consider the school's culpability in relation to ESA and their liability for discrimination here. You also have to consider the schools obligations to Burke under the Employment Equality Act. You can then further consider the implications for the school with regard to Industrial Relations and Unfair Dismissals, and their requirements under this legislation, that all tie back to Burke's complaints re: natural justice and fair procedures.

I'd suggest that you tone down the aggression as nobody is being rude to you, or to anybody, in this thread.

floorpie · 13-09-2022 12:09pm

It was mentioned on Morning Ireland this morning that Burke was asked to refer to the student by their preferred name (of another gender), and that his complaint did not relate solely to being ask to use gender neutral pronouns. Therefore the assertions in the thread that "he didn't even teach them" and that "'gender neutral pronouns aren't incompatible with his religious views" are not relevant anymore.

13-09-2022 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611616#Comment_119611616

When someone commits gross negligence, suspension pending an investigation is the normal due process. Thats what happened.

Have you any opinion on what he did while suspended?

13-09-2022 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611616#Comment_119611616

Get down from your pulpit.

He harassed the principal at a public event. If this was the US he'd have been sacked on the spot.

13-09-2022 12:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611661#Comment_119611661

And female names frequently end up used in even a male context. Would be losing his **** over students called Marion too? It's called being respectful and never required him to reference a specific gender.

Anyway, suspect you guys are gonna be really disappointed when Enoch gets fired and is no longer able to teach...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611616#Comment_119611616

And public displays like that tend to end up resulting in suspensions, since he's basically destroyed his relationship with staff, students and parents. He's free to challenge it as part of the disciplinary process. Instead he ignored they process and continued to show up.

13-09-2022 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611656#Comment_119611656

You're flitting between issue to suit your own point of view. For the last few days you maintained that this had nothing to do with the pronoun issue (and therefore the child) and was rather solely related to his behaviour around the suspension and injunction. You're now talking about the child.

Anyone with any decency knows that behind all of this, there is a child involved.

The injunction against Burke and his imprisonment had nothing to do with the pronoun issue, though his supporters are still trying to make it about that.

13-09-2022 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611661#Comment_119611661

I agree that none of that has any relevance to the issue at hand, i.e. His breach of the injunction, his harassment of the principal etc

TaurenDruid · 13-09-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611616#Comment_119611616

Assuming you have worked/are working - what do you think would happen if you were to disrupt a work meeting with customers present, not once but twice, to complain about your employer's policies? And you kept doing it so disruptively on the second occasion that other staff had to intervene?

An informal warning? Just verbal? Really?!

Sometimes you do not get to pass 'Go', you do not get to collect €200. Instead you get to go directly to jail.

Which, ironically, seems to be exactly what he wanted.

tayto lover · 13-09-2022 2:22pm

Anyone aware of a similar case anywhere in the country either in a school or another workplace?

I can see where people might have a problem with this gender thing but a poster here came up with a simple solution ie just call the student by their surname and the problem is solved.

13-09-2022 2:26pm

I'm a critic of some aspects of gender identity ideology (because it undermines women) but this guy is a clown. As are the media outlets lying that he was imprisoned for not using preferred pronouns.

Westmeath school gets temporary injunction banning a suspended teacher from it's premises

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