What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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This ‘integration’ word….
we have absolutely zero onus to ‘ integrate ‘ anyone… we are doing enough for them…the whole ’ integration’ buzz is just sounding off that when things DO go tits up, who gets the blame ? Ohhh the natural IRISH population who didn’t integrate them… of course !
when I lived abroad for a time, I went and joined my colleagues at and for lunch, I joined the department football team and socialised… while there committed no crime, paid my way…on buses, in shops and restaurants.
immigration is fine and dandy, a positive, but only when sovereign countries make the rules.
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Integration is a complicated thing and there is a huge amount of human nature involved. What do we define as successful integration?
At work when I first started it was a majority Irish team from all over Ireland and a couple people from different parts of the world. We used to all grab lunch together. As the team expanded many of our new colleagues were non-EU. Once there was a few of one nationality they mostly started going to lunch as a group together. Now I am not criticising them as they had language and culture in common and are away from their families so have loads in common. Irish people abroad do the exact same thing, a perfect example of this is setting up GAA clubs abroad. If the numbers of any nationality is present in large numbers then they have their own communities and exposure to their own culture so can live largely separate lives to the native people. It’s not something that should be blamed on Irish people.
There are no easy answers for going from a largely homogeneous society to a very multinational society.
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Nationalism and national pride needs to make a comeback and not be dirty words.
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Definitely...the one thing this government is not is Patriotic!
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Your right. When I think of the Government. 3 words come to mind cloak and dagger.
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How many beheadings of gay men had we pre-open borders??
None, and we’ve had none since then either, notwithstanding the fact that we have never had, and still don’t have an open borders policy in the first place.
Whilst I am not religious, it must be jarring for those who are to see the likes of Enoch Burke in prison and his religious beliefs ridiculed, while Islam cannot be blamed for the beheadings of 2 men, or the murder of the Japanese student in Dundalk under threat of a lefty mob pile on.
A lefty mob pile on? What, like all… four, five of them in the country? What do you imagine they’re going to do? Tickle you into compliance? I have no issue with seeing Enoch Burke in prison, he violated an order of the Court, that’s why he’s in prison. Nothing galling about it, and I don’t care much for what he claims are his religious beliefs and how he imagines he is entitled to treat other people either.
Blaming Christianity for his being a fcuknugget is no different than blaming Islam for the behaviour of a small number of fcuknuggets, it’s no different than believing any ideology is responsible for the behaviour of a small minority of people associated with that particular ideology, whether it be Christianity, Islam, and either Progressive or Conservative Leftism. Any ideology taken to it’s extreme by fcuknuggets, can be used to misrepresent the values of that ideology which are held by the vast majority of it’s more mainstream adherents.
You’re choosing to misrepresent reality, when in reality, Christians, Atheists, and Muslims of a progressive Leftist ideology appear to manage to play nice together and are perfectly capable of finding common ground -
https://atheist.ie/2021/03/un-upr-secularism-ireland/
It’s of no interest to me personally, which is why I’m more than happy for schools which want to fly the Pride flag outside of their schools; as I’ve said previously - it let’s people know to avoid those schools. That way they can also avoid circumstances like this -
https://www.thejournal.ie/muslim-charlie-hebdo-limerick-school-1923456-Feb2015/?amp=1
See? No Leftie pile on, just a small number of people bemused by the whole situation, with nobody else giving a shìt. That’s why your attempt at using identity politics to fester resentment while portraying yourself as the victim by proxy, just doesn’t work as you expect it should.
Similar to the way in which identity politics was invoked by another poster earlier referring to “unvetted males” and their claims that Helen McEntee had no experience, an equally false claim, easily countered by a quick glance at this entry on Wikipedia which references her vast wealth of experience in a number of areas related to politics, law, economics and of course her life experiences in her personal capacity which, it stands to reason, would influence her political decisions as a Minister in the current Government -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_McEntee
I’ve read the thread, and your claim that people’s complaints are limited to the idea that the problem is the lack of well-policed, skills/needs based immigration, is complete rubbish.
People throughout the thread, not just the recent contributors since the closure of the Ukrainian refugees in Ireland thread, have raised a whole plethora of what are problems for them with regard to immigrants and Irish citizens who aren’t of the same ethnicity as themselves, and even Irish citizens who are of the same ethnicity and social status as themselves, who don’t share their views in relation to how other people ought to be perceived and treated accordingly in Irish and International Human Rights Law, or Government policies, or social policies.
Nope, how other people should be treated is determined according to the posters own beliefs, values, views and opinions, not entirely unlike how Enoch Burke thought he was entitled to treat other people. Seems to be working out well for him at least - martyr status achievement unlocked. Still no Leftie pile on though, in spite of the media’s best efforts to get people all wound up about nothing; it’s the Courts are holding him in contempt.
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My flights are booked, I am emigrating, not for economic reasons, but to Spain (Villamartin), South Costa Blanca), just to live in an Irish community
If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.
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Long thread, did not read it all, but the general gist seems to be "too many immigrants" and "integration doesn't work" - did I get that right?
Not really. First off, what does integration consist of? The phrase was thrown around forever during the boom times (10-20 years ago) of multiculturalism, being pushed by Merkels Germany and the EU, but I've never seen any definite explanation of what is entailed with integration. A few years ago, both Germany and France, both champions of multiculturalism, and mass immigration came out stating that their efforts for integration had failed. A sizable percentage of their foreign born population had failed to learn the respective languages, and get jobs that offered an income that would sustain them without State supports. And yet, that still isn't an explanation of what integration is supposedly to mean. Just that it has failed. How has it failed? What would show it's success? Even countries like Denmark (massive demographic shift), and Sweden (with incredibly generous social welfare benefits) have said that their efforts to integrate foreign populations have failed..
As for too many immigrants.. what is the purpose of immigration? To boost the economy, would the obvious one. To bring skills/education that is not commonly available to the host/native population (the assumption being that migrants are not taking the jobs that are aimed at the native population, as it's a common restriction in other non-western nations that such positions would be protected). To boost the culture of the host nation would be a second one, but the focus in multiculturalism is that foreign groups retain their own national/ethnic cultural identity distinctly separate to that of the host nation... so it's questionable what kind of contribution there is to the host culture, as with the advent of telecommunications/technology, people can be exposed to a wide variety of foreign culture without needing a foreign population living here.
The point is what benefit is provided by "too many immigrants"? Is it terrible to be concerned with the benefits to the host nation? Which would seem odd because if you look at any other nation (2nd/3rd world) nation out there, that's what their own immigration policies are concerned with. So, why should western nations be so drastically different?
You see... for months now, I've been seeing people moaning about the environment. I've been living in China, so you can imagine that the environment isn't terribly important beyond the localised area. However, I'm constantly seeing the references to the western world consuming more in terms of resources and products.. so I'm wondering where the sense is in increasing the population of the West, with people who grew up without those benefits, and will want all those benefits when they make enough money to support themselves? The logic seems to drop considerably when people look at these situations.
As for this thread, I don't think anyone is concerned with too many immigrants.. but rather too many unskilled immigrants who are unable to easily support themselves, and so, increase the burden for the taxpayer to provide for those services. There's another strange idea put around that unskilled labourers will be able to cover the costs that they themselves (and their families, which are likely larger than ours due to cultural/religious reasons), at the same level as the native population. It really boggles my mind that people would push such a message, considering how utterly idiotic it is.. but that's the world we live in. Common sense is dead.
Just a genuine question - how would a country run a successful modern economy without immigration? I can't think of any other than perhaps Japan, they too are changing. Who would work here if we were to say non-Irish can't live or work here?
No country exists without immigration. Even N.Korea has immigration, oddly enough. There's always a worse country out there. Both China, and Japan would likely to be considered the most insular of nations, but I've lived in both... and both have significant immigration. The difference is that immigration is temporary. People might say 5, 10, 20 years, but they'll all leave eventually because the host nation isn't welcoming to foreign cultural groups establishing themselves.
But in answer to your question... quite well actually. Here's a shocker. We have the technology to provide a wide range of services, and production without needing people involved. There's a great café/restaurant near where I used to stay in Kyoto. Nobody works there except for the maintenance guys and a manager if things go wrong, which is rare. The whole operation from start to finish, including table service is done through technology, and is completely cashless. It's impressive really... and incredibly popular. There are heaps of applications for the technology we have already to drastically cutdown on the needs for more employees.... however, in most economies, businesses are intentionally designed to employ people. If that wasn't the focus, we could likely remove 50% of the requirements for human employees, by using interactive technology instead.
PS: Also, if someone could find the % of immigrants in Ireland against the % of crimes committed by immigrants as well as the % of victims that are immigrants... It could be insightful..!
Would it? TBH I find statistics make my eyes go cross-eyed, and even then, I instinctively question the research methodologies used to gather the info. It's an interesting one because if you take a deep look at CSO statistics and how they're gathered, they admit that there "could" be a lot of leeway with their results and interpretation, but in reality most people are willing to accept the analysis they provide.
TBH I think all you have to do is take a walk around a few Irish cities/towns, to see how things have changed. Not just look at your hometown, because there is a bias there. But go around the countryside (I'd recommend a gawk at Longford, Mullingar, etc) and you'll see just how much have changed. Considering that these were all places with hefty amounts of crime due to the traveller populations, it's worth considering that crime hasn't decreased even though the travellers in those areas, don't feature so strongly in the statistics. I'll leave it to you to wonder who is making up the difference....
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For Ireland in about 15-20 years time see Sweden now. A small to medium sized country that let too many people in who have no respect for their laws or traditions = Rise of the far right
It's as inevitable as day following night.
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What these people fail to understand is that neo nazis don't come to power by accident.
It's not like most of those voters want to vote for those people.
It's completely reactionary to what they see, experience and how they feel about the situation.
If answers aren't coming from the middle voters are forced elsewhere.
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To be fair, Sweden always had a fairly established far right movement. All you have to do is look at their involvement during WW2, and their own dabbling with genetics to establish the best kind of people. ABBA always seemed proof that their programme succeeded. Their far right inclination has never been completely hidden.
Nah. In all honestly, I suspect Denmark is a greater example of how Ireland will turn out. A relative small native population facing a massive demographic shift not just in terms of the first generation migration, but the subsequent large families with children who neither feel "Danish" or that of the migrant culture. Within a generation or two, Denmark has spiralled out of control... and nobody is talking about it. That will be Ireland in 20-30 years time. It'll be slower for us, because we're not directly connected to the EU, but it'll happen nonetheless.
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I take your points on board. I don't think anyone on this thread or the aforementioned one are anti immigration.
There is a correct way of doing things. I believe the citizens of Ireland are being vilified for speaking up about their concerns. I don't see anything wrong with communicating our worries.
The government are simply ignoring the issues which is quite ironic, as they have been elected to lead. They are to blame for any issues which have arisen by their lack of engagement and consultation.
All they are doing is saying without saying "move on, nothing to see here". We live in a democracy our opinions should be heard and considered.
We are very progressive and tolerant people. I have no time for religion but I would not degrade those who do.
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Zzzzzzzz, gimme a shout when the audiobook of that comes out.
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In Denmark in 2020 there were 136,297 instances of crime
non Danes committed roughly 38,000 instances of crime…
27.88% of crimes committed by non Danish people.
Turkish, Lebanese, Iraqi and Syrian make up the top 5 ethnicities of non Danish criminals.
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Not available on audible, but you could try this if you’d prefer to have text read to you than reading it yourself -
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Would you mind posting up the source from the stats it would be interested to read them considering what a safe country Denmark is.
Also are these 130k+ violent crimes?
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There is a correct way of doing things. I believe the citizens of Ireland are being vilified for speaking up about their concerns. I don't see anything wrong with communicating our worries.
Ahh but there is. I've noticed this a lot since I returned to Ireland. There's this fervent denial that anything negative might exist where public spending or involvement might be invested in. Any criticism, no matter how slight, is taken to be an attack on the topic.
I reference China a lot because I've spent so much time there, but it relates to what's happening here. In China, nobody talks about the primary issues that affect people on a daily basis. Nobody will talk about the factory spilling waste into the local river, because it might, possibly (nobody actually knows) be partially owned by a State concern. Nobody talks about the homeless situation (although university students will go out to provide food and other help), because it's seen as virtuous to do so. Not knocking what they do, but there's no public debate about the overall issues, and how they can be resolved.
The same happens in Ireland. We've seen a couple (really, not many) politicians come out to criticise issues with opinions which run counter to the mainstream (and media approved) consensus, and be completely demolished. Even though, a democratic nation should be questioning every aspect of it's society so that the best possible form can be created...
We've learned to be browbeaten into silence. I see it in China, where there is a community silence. The fear of what strangers or worse yet, what people you know might, possibly, think of what you talk about. More often than not, the topics aren't talked about, because of the suggested fear. People on boards like to think this all comes from the CCP, but it's more related to the society, and culture.... and we, in Ireland, are encouraging the creation of the same society here too.
It doesn't matter if it actually exists or not. The fear of condemnation is enough to shutdown a sizeable percentage of the population due to the importance and influence of social media, and its real impact on peoples lives.. I agree that we should be expressing our concerns. That's what constitutes a healthy democracy (although between Catholicism, State censorship, etc), I'd question how much has ever gone on here. TBH when I first arrived in China, I saw a lot of similarities between Chinese and Irish culture.
However, I think we need to acknowledge all the pressures on people in Irish society to conform to the accepted views on a wide number of issues. The lack of an independent and credible national broadcaster means that we're all fed a steady diet of news which supports the government (not State) mandate on issues such as immigration.
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Why is the standard on violent crimes? If the chance of your bags beings stolen in a non-tourist spot increases dramatically, surely that matters?
More importantly, there is the perception about the risk of danger. I went to Denmark twenty odd years ago (A stoner Holland Trip that went sideways), and it was considered a very safe destination. Like seriously, safe to the point of boredom. However, if you look at any modern reviews of the country, there's a lot of precautions (and scam warnings) advertised.
Are we really to expect that the native population has changed so much in the same period, and if so, what caused such a drastic change (without external influence)? I think if you do any serious research on societal change, you'll find that societies/cultures don't change so drastically without the infusion of foreign populations, and their culture intersections, If anything, without the foreign infusion, societies that are traditionally safe, become even moreso, to the point of stagnation.
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People like this are a huge problem and that kind of commentary leads to entrenchment of views. The sanctimonious judgment of the Swedish people over their voting. That attitude doesn’t help. Reminds me of the commentary around Brexit and Trump being elected (everyone dismissed as being racist or in this case fascists).
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Ireland is now the only native English speaking country left in the EU which is making it attractive to come here for many.
Ireland is an absolute Social Welfare Paradise, it's ridiculous.
I can drive through this town and count a ridiculously high amount of people who are not native Irish shall we say...haven't worked a day in their lives here but have been given houses in high demand locations and high weekly social welfare payments.
There is absolutely no onus on them to work and carve out a living here or contribute anything to society or the community. It's so wrong.
It's now very sad that we have another huge wave, more like Tsunami, of emigration of our youngest and brightest who cannot afford to live here. Where is the justice in that!?
There is also a lost generation that I see in my age group that cannot put down roots as they move from one rental to another and as a result, find it hard to keep friendships and relationships going. Stuck in a rental poverty trap and it's impacting them in every way.
This government have a lot of answer for and have failed us.
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There is currently a protest taking place outside the Dail on these issues. Wonder will RTE pick it up.
Post edited by CeCe12 on7 -
I see videos of Islamic Women wanting Sharia law in Sweden. Can easily been seen on social media. Also see men rioting with Swedish police.
This was meant to be the country that led the way, the prime example of how it’s done.
I have little more interest as one my best friends brother lives in Sweden. His family has seen a massive change in last 15 years, but especially since around 2015 things have got scary bad.
He has a very good job in Sweden, they live in a lovely area, and yet his children have get a police escort to school every morning on the bus they go in now.
What hope have the rest got if they welcome people only to walk on top of them.
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See quite an increase in Somalians recently around Dublin. Hope we don't see a massive increase in them coming here with the issues they cause in Sweden
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This is the only media coverage. There were a number of protests today, the one I am referring to was under the "cost of living" umbrella. Not much details here.
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dinosaurs-rise-dead-protest-outside-25015213
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Do you have these stats that I asked for from another poster?
Would you mind posting up the source from the stats it would be interested to read them considering what a safe country Denmark is.
This was what the poster said I just asked for a source.
In Denmark in 2020 there were 136,297 instances of crime
non Danes committed roughly 38,000 instances of crime…
27.88% of crimes committed by non Danish people.
If not why bother jumping in with a wall of text on something I was not asking for?
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The fact that you would consider that post (🙄) "as a wall of text" shows that you have no real interest in any kind of fair discussion. It's the same kind of dismissive response that Robbie, and Lmao used to come out with when faced with something they couldn't really argue with.
You won't really deal with the statistics even if they were provided to you.
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On your first point, I know you don’t think anyone on this thread, or the previous one are anti-immigration, but that’s just not borne out by the evidence in just this thread alone, or the previous one, or the two new threads regarding the new Government in Sweden or whether the Irish Government were right not to put a cap on Ukrainian refugees. The threads are littered with examples of anti-immigrant opinions.
For sure there’s a correct way of doing things, but I don’t agree that the citizens of Ireland are being vilified for speaking up about their concerns, nor do I see anything wrong with anyone communicating their worries either. I think we could probably both agree it’s HOW people express their concerns, is the determining factor in whether anyone takes either them, or their concerns seriously or not. People are going to differ on whether or not the WAYS in which people are going about expressing their concerns, is the correct way of doing so. For example kicking Paul Murphy wouldn’t be the way I would go about expressing myself, but at the same time, I’m not going to pass judgement too harshly on anyone who would… not that I’m advocating violence as a legitimate form of protest, just that I’m not going to be too critical of whether or not it was the correct way of expressing their opinion of Paul Murphy’s opinions 😬
https://www.thejournal.ie/paul-murphy-kicked-leinster-house-5866366-Sep2022/
Considering how he expressed his opinions of Joan Burton’s political performance, it’s probably fair to say he hasn’t a leg to stand on. Basically what I’m saying is that it’s not a question of having a right or wrong opinion, or even how anyone expresses their opinions; it’s a question of whether anyone has the right to have their opinions taken seriously, and nobody has that right.
That’s why it’s unfair IMO to say that the Government are simply ignoring the issues, simply because it feels like they’re not doing what some people feel they ought to be doing, and it would be equally silly IMO to suggest Government are to blame for any issues arising out of any lack of engagement or consultation with people who haven’t even attempted to go about making representations to Government in the correct way. People expressing their opinions on social media are even less likely to be taken seriously than people who actually take the time and make the effort to go through the proper channels, and get an audience with the right people who are actually the people in positions to make changes. The puppets in Government are just for show. It doesn’t matter who’s actually in Government, that’s just an exercise in musical chairs. The people who are making the decisions are the civil servants in the various Government departments, people who will have a job regardless of who’s in Government. The muppet show in Leinster House only exists for the purposes of giving people the impression of a functioning democratic political process. They actually have very little in the way of any political power, so holding them responsible for things they aren’t responsible for is misguided, at best.
To give you an example, AHBs were reclassified from NGOs to being part of the general government sector on the basis that they receive public funds has been a major pain in the hole for AHBs. For them it meant that investors have been scared off by the idea of increased regulation in the sector. For the public, it’s meant increased accountability and better management of public funds -
https://www.housing.eolasmagazine.ie/reclassifying-approved-housing-bodies/
Government aren’t going to do anything about it, because they can’t, not on their own at least, even with all the engagement and consultation which has been going on for years between Government and the various stakeholders involved in the housing sector. It’s a similar story in the Education sector and yes, in the Immigration sector. I think you’re vastly overestimating the influence of social media if you imagine that Government have ever made decisions on the basis of a strongly worded tweet. It’s about as influential on Government policy as a strongly worded letter. In short, while we do live in a democracy, I don’t agree that all opinions should be heard and considered, let alone should all opinions be considered of equal value; nor do I think that every opinion should be acted upon immediately with the idea that not doing so means being responsible for the consequences which are predicted to befall society if people do not act upon that person’s ideas for Irish society.
I’d also disagree with the idea that we are a tolerant and progressive society. We’re generally not, which is generally how we like things to be, because any kind of change is irksome, and change on the scale of what’s required for Irish society to become either tolerant or progressive would require us to be a very different society altogether. I think there are some people in society who imagine themselves to be progressive and tolerant and all the rest of it, as long as everyone else in society conforms to their expectations and beliefs and values and so on, but as soon as they are confronted with the existence of people who don’t conform to their expectations and beliefs and values, well, I won’t put it quite so bluntly as The Boys creator Erik Kripke did in his message to Internet trolls, but I did laugh at the “Be kind” nonsense being shown up yet again for the stupidity it is -
"Two, you're causing pain to real people with real feelings. Be Kind. If you can't be kind, then eat a bag of dicks, f**k off to the sun & don't watch The Boys, we don't want you."
https://www.unilad.com/film-and-tv/the-boys-creator-toxic-fans-20220908
I’d suggest ideas like being tolerant and progressive are dependent upon the premise of the idea being presented, how it’s presented, and whom it’s being presented by, will determine whether or not anyone should be expected to take it seriously or not. While I’m all for discussing ideas on any given subject on any given platform, the facilitators of that discussion, if they are a privately owned entity, don’t have to facilitate every arsehole with an opinion who imagines their opinions ought to be heard and considered on the basis that we live in a democratic society. Generally speaking, if their opinions were given any sort of serious consideration, to the point where they were acted upon, then the product of their opinions would be the very opposite of a democratic society, it would lead to an autocratic Government which would stifle the right to freedom of expression of any members of society who were critical of their leadership. It wouldn’t work out very well for Irish society is what I’m saying, which is why it’s probably for the best that the Irish Government doesn’t take their mandate from social media, but rather from a wide range of stakeholders both nationally and internationally regarding all facets of Irish society, who have a lot to either lose or gain from either maintaining the status quo, or bringing about changes they wish to see in Irish society.
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