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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    The squad isn't representative at all at the moment. It should be 50% women, 10% gays, and it should mirror the demographics for race, religion, et cetera.

    Let's see a good age range; some babies, some children, teenages, adults and older people.

    And no elite sportspeople. How much of the population is elite sportspeople? Hardly any.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    To be fair, I didn't say "fixed", I said "improved". And I think the %'s you've spelled out are misleading.

    For example: In 2014 they had 9 out of 26 (34.6%). But 3 of those 9 players didn't come through the Munster development pathways. Similarly in 2015, 1 of the 6 wasn't Munster developed.

    If you look at the current squad Salonoa and Frisch aren't Munster developed, but Flannery is so that's 9 out of 35. So the actual figures we're looking at are:

    2014: 6 out of 26 = 23.1%

    2015: 5 out of 27 = 18.5%

    2022: 9 out of 35 = 25.7%

    Which is, like I said, improvement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Okay, fair enough 😁

    It'd be interesting to see the 2013 squad, if anyone can find it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Salanoa is an interesting one. He fits the mould of athletic, powerful and dynamic forward Farrell is looking for, so I suppose his selection shouldn't come as a surprise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    Man the negativity around here can be unbearable at times.

    Really looking forward to this - an opportunity to see something different and hopefully an opportunity to further the development of some international prospects.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Baloucoune as you mention, but Connacht are probably most impacted losing Prendergast and Blade from their starting 15. Kendellen and/or Hodnett are in that conversation too (with new coaches caveats etc.).

    But there are a number of players that are in and around a teams strongest 23 too like Barron, Ahern, Doak, McIlroy, Frawley and McCarthy.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Similar to Crowley and Ben Healy, he's been picked ahead of a guy who would've been a candidate for this tour, and is notionally behind at his Province, in Keynan Knox.

    Huge season for both Knox and Salanoa, there's a first choice provincial berth there for the taking.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Can't find the full squad, but they've listed the 22 for the Georgia game here:

    Which had 2 Munster developed players in the 22; so 9.1% to use your previous metric.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Yes there will be disruption but not significant. This was being framed as disastrous decision. That will hugely impact on the provinces competitiveness. That could affect results. Given the squad announcement and the fact the full internationals are available. That just isn’t true at all.

    The potential benefits here far outweigh any drawbacks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Junket? You really are impossible to discuss things with at times. The fact that you believe this is a junket, shows exactly how unreasonable your position is.



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  • Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Jackman seems to agree with me, it's interesting to see the perspective of someone who has actually coached at ProWhatever level. A few quotes:

    RTÉ Rugby analyst Bernard Jackman has branded the upcoming Emerging Ireland tour of South Africa as a "terrible idea", citing both the timing of the venture and the poor quality of the opposition involved.


    I think it sends the wrong message to the provincial coaches of where they stand in the pecking order.


    The URC is getting stronger. Points are going to count for a lot, early doors. To lose some of your key players, particularly when some of the international players are not going to be back into full swing, could lose provincial coaches points. That could potentially cost them jobs, long-term.


    But given how poor the opposition are, and the timing of it, I think they'd be better off playing for their province in a URC game against the Sharks or the Bulls or Glasgow or Edinburgh.


    Realistically, what can we find out? If Ciaran Frawley has a stormer against the Griquas, what's it worth?



  • Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Sorry but you're still not getting this, you're still looking at it through your blue glasses where the players you have lost are either not within a sniff of your first team, or are easily replaced thanks to your massive depth chart. Unfortunately for other provinces this is not the case.

    You keep saying "sure the internationals are back". So what? There is no guarantee that the internationals will be available to play in both affected games. Any of them could get injured. This is why we have a squad of more than 23 players.

    Baloucoune is probably Ulster's best winger right now. Our best winger is unavailable because of this ridiculous tour.

    Our 2nd and 3rd choice 9 are unavailable because of this tour. Just ponder that for a second.

    We have to go into a game against the best team in the league, but can't pick from a full deck of fit players, because the IRFU decided to arbitrarily take a bunch of them away. If this doesn't sound absolutely stupid to you then I think you're a lost cause!

    There is no benefit whatsoever here for provinces. They are being shat on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Selective reality again. Leinster are generally more affected than any other province when it comes to International call ups. Yes they have more depth than the other provinces but they contribute the highest numbers by a long way.

    There is a certain Jacob Stockdale who might put his hand up for most important winger for Ulster. He will be available, along with Lowry, Hume & McCloskey. It’s not like Ulster are lacking in quality backs. They arguably have far more depth there than Leinster.

    When was the last time Leinster won in Ravenhill? That’s just a complete and utter red Herring.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Listening to Easterby at the squad announcement, it's clear this isn't about wins or performances (although I'd imagine you wouldn't want to look poor against those teams). It's literally about prepping these players to be able to play the way Ireland want and be familiar with the systems at the drop of a hat if they have to be called up. These are extended training runs where Ireland and the provinces are only providing half the players.


    In the Autumn nations, Timoney got a call on a Saturday morning to come down and okay a test that night and was able to, because he had just been sent home from the extended training squad. They want to widen the pool of players able to do that, and have a look at potential bolters.


    There is no good time of year for that to happen. It'll be a very tight table again this year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Not getting into the original discussion that prompted this post but there's a lot to be said for representation through whatever vectors apply. I hate to see Ireland squads without any players from Connacht for example, same goes if there was an Irish squad or team that didn't have players from any of the other provinces. Most people on here aren't thrilled when Leinster make up 12 or 13 starters for Ireland, and for good reason. I don't think it merits some kind of quota system but it does indicate that something isn't working at the grassroots and development level when we see that. Same goes for working class kids, state school kids and newer Irish kids. It's no good for the game if young players can't see themselves making the team.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Leinster are the most affected during genuine international windows. That's why we have international windows to begin with, and why they have taken steps to stop playing club games during these windows.

    Leinster are absolutely not the most affected by this tour. The affect on Leinster is pretty inconsequential, which is why I think you can't see the issue for others. You are losing a bunch of players who have not got a sniff of your first team, and the few first teamers you are losing are in positions where you have incredible depth.

    Stockdale might be available, or he might not. Same for Lowry. Same for Hume. Same for McCloskey. Any one of them could get crocked on Saturday.

    Leinster won in Ravenhill in March 2021, the season before last. It's not exactly unheard of.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    To be fair, at the time this was announced, there was a nod to the Māori game. Part of the reason I was heavily critical of it is because that could’ve meant guys like Casey, Coombes, Hume and Timoney being selected.

    Given it is going ahead, I think they’ve gotten the selections pretty right. But I can still understand why some, from a Provincial point of view, might well be critical, especially when it’s someone like Baloucoune going, who we know can be a game changer on his own.

    And I’d amend your last sentence as follows, that the potential benefits [for Ireland] here far outweigh any drawbacks [for the Provinces]. But lets not pretend there aren’t drawbacks for the Provinces.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Would this be a fair reflection of the core players the various Provinces are losing, with the omissions being outside the strongest 23? (Fans of other provinces can keep me honest here).




  • Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    McCarthy is more like a possible for 23 for Leinster, they have Ryan, Moloney and Jenkins.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Ryan Baird would be ahead of McCarthy too imo.


    Frawley also I'd rate as a possibility for the strongest 23. There's a few people who can get ahead of him as the outside back cover and he may only be 4th choice at 10. He may be higher up in Leinster at 10.


    Interesting to see Esterby's comments


    "We feel Frawls has the potential to lead in a number of different positions. Obviously, he has played 12 a fair bit for Leinster but we see him, which he did in the Maori weeks, as being a guy who can lead from the front at 10, and lead a week.

    "He'll be asked in the next few weeks to do a slightly different role to what he did in New Zealand because he had lots of senior players around him. We feel he has the ability to step up and front the week, lead the week, as someone like at the extreme, Johnny Sexton does week in, week out and has done for a number of years.

    "Giving those players like Frawls the opportunity to put himself at the forefront of a week, lead it, take the team to a performance at the weekend in that position at 10, is crucial for us. We're still finding out a little bit about Frawls and the way he can play.

    "You can see that when they're playing for their provinces in the URC but it is slightly different and there's not a huge difference, but there is a difference when you have them in your environment across a couple of weeks period. Hopefully, we can benefit from that time and Frawls can benefit from that time when he goes back into Leinster after this trip."

    https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2022/0914/1323410-easterby-wary-of-compromises-over-emerging-ireland/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Potentially fascinating to see how the leadership group takes shape here with no veterans in the group. Balacoune I'd guess is part of that group, along with say Frawley, Blade, McCarthy, Prendergast and a few others. Who will be captain?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I'm suspecting that the captain will be chosen when people get together.


    The captain has to emerge rather than be chosen in this (which is a bit of a scratch squad).


    I've got a feeling based on Easterby's comment that Frawley is going to be given a chance to establish himself as a leader. If he does he might be in the running for captain.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Two fair enough shouts RE: McCarthy and Frawley, has it looking something like this:




  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    there was absolutely nothing negative posted, trc is personally abusing me for something he thinks i said. its important to recognise these fantastic changes that are happening. in football and athletics recently these have been recognised. Illo represents a community which is now a large part of the make up of the Island. In football its a core identity of our squad with some of the best talent Irish Nigerian. obviously we've had a few players of all backgrounds already but i'd imagine Illo along with Okeke and Edogbo have a real chance at becoming key parts of Irish rugby. its fantastic. and i think rugby has been slow to recognise this change, unlike football. rugby has a huge way to go but Leinster and Munster in particular seem to be doing good work. but still much more is needed. we can't pretend that private schools rugby still isn't the bedrock of the game here.

    were people calling supporters morons when people praised Ogbene and recognised the importance of that? or ditto with the runners recently? all morons i suppose. Illo looks a real talent in a position that always needs bodies. RB, Ci its great to see this new representation in such a homogenous sport in Ireland. it will be great the day that rugby does represent most people in this isle of every background, in the inner city or whatever.

    TRC is a disgrace calling me a moron for such a simple nothing point. but yeah the main point is first and foremost he is a very good young irish rugby player in a position we need bodies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    "Realistically, what can we find out? If Ciaran Frawley has a stormer against the Griquas, what's it worth? Jackman sums it up in one sentence basically.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This 100%. Jackman seems to completely ignore what the coaches are saying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    i think the questioning some of us have is if this is in anyway beneficial in the short term? most of the squad would arguably be pretty far down the pecking order and are unlikely to be called upon in a similar situation to the timoney one. from the make up of whos selected, it looks like it might be more of a rwc 2027 thing rather than for the next one and if it is then it seems to be a bit odd in terms of timing. out of that squad id only see frawley and maybe one of the props going to france if everyone is available (sorry for the baloucoune fans but i think hes down the pecking order unfortunately)



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    There’s also the level behind the guys in the RWC squad. The ones who will get called up due to injuries. There could well be a few spots up for grabs there for the likes of Blade and Doak at 9, Wycherley, McCarthy, Deegan and Prendergast.

    Then when it comes to someone like Balacoune, his injuries the last while have hindered his involvement with Ireland. And with Stockdale back opportunities in November could be limited further. This gives the coaches a chance to get some time with him and see where he is at and what he needs to work on with a view to deciding on his selection in November. Back 3 is a bit backed up now. Earls, Conway, Lowe, Hansen, Stockdale, Keenan and Larmour would all be there or thereabouts. Can they really bring 8 back 3 players into the squad? Doubtful. And so who misses out? All the others have spent meaningful time in the squad other than Balacoune. So immediately he’s on the back foot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Easterby said he was supposed to go to NZ, but he was injured. So he's right up there. Someone else will drop out.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    and i think rugby has been slow to recognise this change

    You're a moron for suggesting that there are players who have been good enough to play for Ireland, but who have been left out based on their ethnicity.

    I'd be fascinated to hear who these players are, that rugby has "failed to recognise".

    Equally, it's an insult to guys like Illo, to suggest that his selection is a result of the IRFU "recognising change". He's there on talent alone.

    I don't see why people need to make a song and dance about what people look like. I thought we'd moved on from this.



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