Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

JMcL · 14-09-2022 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615494#Comment_119615494

Jesus wept. Guards really not covering themselves in glory in any aspect of that. What hope have you of enforcement of laws when they're clueless to the actual laws of the country on so many levels?

Related, anybody that hasn't put in a submission on the Capel street consultation should do so today as it's closing. "Dublin Town", which appears to be a lobbying platform backed largely by car park operators, are spreading FUD among councillors and chipping away at its current status:

https://irishcycle.com/2022/09/14/car-free-capel-street-may-be-in-trouble-as-councillors-lobbied-by-businesses-and-motorists/

Chips Lovell · 14-09-2022 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617105#Comment_119617105

Dunno. We don't really have all the details. The fact that he insisted on speaking to them in Irish when he can clearly speak English suggests that he's a bit of an awkward individual.

CramCycle · 14-09-2022 7:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618698#Comment_119618698

This, I'll wait for the video but there are several FPNs they could give him as they are based on a Gardas opinion. Also failing to follow the direction of a Garda in relation to being part of traffic can also be an offence IIRC unless they direct you to do something illegal.

cletus · 14-09-2022 7:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618698#Comment_119618698

That was my first thought

AndrewJRenko · 14-09-2022 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618698#Comment_119618698

Or else it suggests that he's an Irish language speaker, who is legally entitled to do all business with the State as gaeilge.

cletus · 14-09-2022 9:34pm

He clearly speaks both languages. What benefit is there in pursuing the conversation in Irish with someone who, in all likelihood, is not a native speaker.

Cetyl Palmitate · 14-09-2022 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619432#Comment_119619432

While the guards were clearly wrong it does raise questions as to whether some escalation could have been avoided with a less obstinate attitude.

15-09-2022 12:07am

Yeah, the guy basically failed the attitude check and it descended into the shitshow it became from there. No one involved from my reading of it comes out looking well.

To me it seems the Gardai were on public order duty and didn't want the guy cycling down a street with lots of pedestrians on it even though according to some signs he legally could. They say he can't cycle there at all instead of advising him to get off due to the numbers of pedestrians around and walking and he then pulls the as Gaeilge card and we have a stand off with two idiots who double down on their nonsense and he gets his bike seized probably in the wrong but good enough for him imo 😂

Kaisr Sose · 15-09-2022 1:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619432#Comment_119619432

Whether he was in the wrong or not, be has the right to converse with them in Irish. The force itself takes great pride in its name, which exists only in Irish. That the Garda involved could not speak it, is no grounds to escalate matters.

AGS really need to educate their members on basic GDPR principles. They appear totally clueless and then when it suits, appeal to the public for dash cam..

As said by someone else, rather than policing a pedestrianised street, how about some enforcement on parking in cycle lanes, driving in them and bus lanes, and taking bikes of people for not having lights (using the same belief that if they did not, the cyclist would continue to cycle without lights and endanger themselves and other road users.

That woukd be far more effective in terms of Operation Citizen Duty.

cletus · 15-09-2022 6:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620200#Comment_119620200

While everything you said is correct, it doesn't answer the question I asked.

I know that he is entitled to do it, the question is where the benefit lies.

If you were, say, in the tax office, and spoke Irish to the person at the window, and it became apparent that they did not speak Irish, would you revert to English, that you both speak, or continue in Irish?

There seems to be nothing served by only addressing the garda in Irish, except to escalate the situation.

randomname2005 · 15-09-2022 7:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620309#Comment_119620309

I don't know.

If I was a native or fluent speaker and approached a Garda asking for directions, help or otherwise and they had little to no Irish a quick swap to English is probably not going to be an issue.

If I was going about my business, doing absolutely nothing wrong and gardaí start making a fuss over nothing then I am going to speak in Irish.

The gardaí are the ones who escalated the situation, from the little we know about it

cletus · 15-09-2022 7:33am

Ok, at least that's an acknowledgement that Irish, in this case, was most probably used to as an annoyance tactic, rather than to communicate.

From the report, it would definitely seem that the garda involved was in the wrong. However this situation, like most of life, is not a zero sum game.

CramCycle · 15-09-2022 8:54am

This, you may be entitled to cycle down the street. Now the Garda asking him to dismount may be wrong in regards whether he is allowed to or not(if reported correctly) to say he can't cycle there but he can direct him to if it would cause a danger to do so in the eyes of the Gardai. The street being full of pedestrians (I haven't seen the video) would be a legitimate reason. Either way, all that really happened here was the Garda mistakenly quoted the wrong law but I would argue that an offence was being committed. Had the cyclist followed the Gardas direction, nothing would have happened. A minor inconvenience for the percieved safety of others.

As for the speaking Irish bit, yes, the person is entitled to it and they should have gotten an Irish speaker, possibly why they had 5 gardai turn up but lets call a spade a spade. If I was on Litir Mealain, I'd be frustrated if the Gardai couldn't converse but in the greater Dublin area, while it would be nice, it is an unreal expectation from every Garda. It has not been mandatory for a Garda to speak Irish for close to 20 years. If they cannot speak Irish, but you insist on it, depending on the situation, they could bring you to a station and request an interpreter. If, like i suspect this man had, made it clear you can speak English, then they are being beligerant.

Long story short, the Irish speaking was wilful beligerance when the person could speak English, they mistakenly believed they could get Irish as a way out of a FPN on the side of the road, which is not the case. They can bring you to a station and wait for an interpreter if it is clear you do not have another language such as English.

Grassey · 15-09-2022 9:16am

Its the context though.

If he started off in English then switched to Irish to annoy them, then yes he's out to annoy them.

If he's a daily speaker and typically interacts with the State through Irish and he initiated this in Irish then the issues is on the Gardaí for not engaging. Public bodies have a target of 20-30% bilingual speakers for this purpose. You'd think that 1 of the 5 Gardaí that were there would fit the bill...

Anyways I think the only conclusion to draw is Bad Gardaí... Bad!

magicbastarder · 15-09-2022 9:30am

if the gardai managed that, they'd be accused of discrimination - what percentage of the irish population would be capable of dealing with a conversation like that fluently? 1%?

the gardai would probably have to hire every fluent gaelgoir in dublin to be able to get to a figure of 20% of them being able to deal with that situation.

CramCycle · 15-09-2022 9:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620600#Comment_119620600

This video hasn't materialised, and everything about it reads in a manor that paints neither side in glory. With only one side reporting details, of which none have been verified as far as I can tell from the article, I will remain cautious about taking the story as described. He is a daily Irish speaker and I imagine it is 100% his first language but there is no requirement for a Garda to speak Irish. They must be fluent in either English or Irish. If they are not fluent in one, and you cannot speak the other, they can bring you to a station and request an interpretator. They of course use discretion in this matter. If I was in a Gaeltacht area, I would attempt to converse as Gaeilge and I would not expect the Garda to speak in English but if they did, I would be happy either way. If I had committed an offence and was being beligerant, I would fully expect them to bring me to the station to get an interpretator if necessary. The fact that it would be apparent I could understand both though, I would understand if they didn't and jsust charged me in the language most convenient. If i demanded the other, I would expect them to say nope, its clear you understand or we can take a trip to the station to make sure there is no misinterpretation.

This demand to speak Irish is not an entitlement anymore on the side of the street but if he has no other language, then he is entitled to an interpretator if the Gardai present are not fluent. Regrettably the wait that will entail for this, something he apparently understood and could have simply got around by either informing the Gardai in English that as far as he was aware you could cycle there but he would stop on grounds of public safety for the moment or he could have dismounted, walked it and then dropped an email in to the station, in either language, to ask the Super to inform their staff that they were incorrect.

Chips Lovell · 15-09-2022 9:39am

The key word there is "target". I gather the Guards are struggling to even hit a third in Gaeltacht areas. One of the problems with the Official Languages Act is that, aside from the fact that it creates obligations on the state that aren't really required, it also creates obligations that can't be met. There simply isn't enough Irish speakers to go round. This of course adds fuel to the fire for the cranks who weaponise the language, because there'll always be something to complain about.

fat bloke · 15-09-2022 10:37am

So annoying the Gardai is a fineable offence now?

cletus · 15-09-2022 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620926#Comment_119620926

Most people responding here, myself included, have pointed out that the garda was probably in the wrong.

However, as I said, its not a zero sum game. It's possible for everyone to lose in a situation like this, and that seems to be what happened.

I asked previously where the benefit lay in speaking Irish instead of English, the reality is there was no benefit. There is a huge list of publc and state bodies that are required to provide an Irish speaker if so asked, but I'd put money on the guy in the article not intereacting with every state body through Irish, because it would be hugely inconvenient to him. He chose to use the Irish language in this instance, not to communicate, but to obfuscate and stymie communication with the garda.

Squidgy Black · 15-09-2022 11:40am

Without being incendiary, I wouldn't exactly be excusing the Gardai in this matter either considering they were playing the whole "don't record me, GDPR" card as well, plus the fact 5 of them showed up to deal with what was essentially just a FPN, even though it can take hours to get them to respond to incidents in the area usually.

Large bottle small glass · 15-09-2022 11:43am

I think the two Garda on the north quays about two years ago would have been much happier if Gemma O'Doherty and Waters were as Gaelige

cletus · 15-09-2022 11:44am

Not excusing the garda at all, seems to have been in the wrong, or at least quoted the wrong legislation for whatever issue he had with the guy cycling down Capel Street.

Kaisr Sose · 15-09-2022 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620651#Comment_119620651

The requirement under the act is quite onerous on state bodies. I have to output a lot of my work in both languages to comply eve thought more than 90% of public can't or won't read the Irish version. It can be used in reverse, as it was here. That's a problem for AGS. The whole incident appears to have been avoidable in the first place.

There are cyclists on Henry Street everyday. I have not seen a garda there to challenge them. I welcome them finally seeing this as part of their citizen duty remit. Can we have it extended to parking on cycle lanes too.

fat bloke · 15-09-2022 12:59pm

Annoyance, obfuscation, uncooperation - it's one thing if a crime had been committed but this man was perfectly legal in cycling along a car free street, and is perfectly entitled to conduct his business with the state through Irish. Yet he was challenged, stopped, hugely inconvenienced and fined.

CramCycle · 15-09-2022 1:02pm

Just so we are clear here, it is claimed that is what happened. Cians article doesn't mention if proof of such was provided. It would be a far simpler discussion if it was.

The gardai deal with the official languages act by bringing you to the station and getting an interpretator, simples. The person in question was entitled to that, but they, like any reasonable person have to accept that it is not plausible or possible to get that in every on the spot interactions. To the best of my understanding, it does not have to be done live at the time of request but reasonable accomodations must be made. I really want to see the video because its the only way we will actually know, maybe the gardai advised the person of this and they started demanding it there, which there is no obligation to do so, particularly if it is clear the person understands the language they are speaking.

According to the Garda press office “Gardaí were on patrol on Capel St, Dublin, as part of Operation Citizen duty, on Saturday 10th September 2022. At approximately 1:15pm, a request was made to a cyclist to dismount, owing to the volume of pedestrians on the street at the time.”

Gardai are allowed ask you to dismount if they fell that it presents a danger to yourself or others. They are allowed sieze the bicycle if you fail to provide details or the ones you provide are felt to be potentially false. I suspect, as most of us do, that there is slightly more to this than his version. I suspect that until the Video is forthcoming, we have to accept both versions and that the truth lies somewhere in between.

Kaisr Sose · 15-09-2022 1:10pm

Yes the video would clarify a lot. The Garda PO statement is not going to put it out there that the citizen was challenged for no reason. They answered on the official line. It may be bang on or waffle to distract attention away from the facts. It's strange that they made a statement. Normally the line is they dont comment on specific cases.

tomasrojo · 15-09-2022 10:09pm

I do actually believe they told him to walk because it's a "pedestrian" street. Ties in with observed behaviour on their part. They sometimes tell cyclists it's a legal requirement to wear hiviz and I've heard one person say a garda threatened to confiscate his bike if he didn't take and wear the hiviz the garda was distributing.

There's an interesting history of people speaking Irish being treated as troublemakers in the legal system, which I think was part of the motivation for the new legal framework.

CramCycle · 15-09-2022 10:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621570#Comment_119621570

Its in response to a query from a journalist, they should respond. Like all responses, they won't go past the bare facts. In fact, it doesn't really vary from the guys statement, his just has more detail which is where the query comes in. He says he is going to go further, it will be interesting to see what comes of it

CramCycle · 15-09-2022 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623954#Comment_119623954

It was always the theory in my youth you would engage in Irish as unless a serious crime it wasn't worth the hassle to the Garda. The other was demanding statements as gaeilge so as to put it outside the time limit for issuing a fine. No idea if it worked, I would be doubtful though.

Kaisr Sose · 15-09-2022 10:26pm

I was directed to get off a cycle lane which the Garda said was a pavement. It was clearly a cycle lane that pedestrians were walking on rather than the pavement which is a longer point to point walk. He was adamant that I was on a pavement until I pointed out the cycle lane markings and the signage directing pedestrians to the left. He got quite ratty and was holding up cars as he was speaking to me from his car. Traffic Corps too. He then told me I should slow down as clearly the lane is not for fast cycling. I said where is that signed or legislated for? I was tempted to call him a total fool but I bit my lip. He then never told the pedestrians walking past to use the pavement provided for them. Fools in uniform is what some of them are.

Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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