Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 8:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619037#Comment_119619037

Leinster are supplying a third of the players. Including McCarthy, Deegan, Penney, Osbourne and Frawley who would all be probably in the starting 23. Along with Soroka and Clarkson who would be there or there abouts. Though Leinster aren’t affected by this? I think you need to take your blindfold off that you wear when it comes to Leinster.

All the provinces are affected. That affect as expected will cause minimal disruption. If you think this will have a material affect on results. Please explain how?

Out of the last 7 games in Ravenhill Leinster have not won one in front of a crowd. The two wins came during the pandemic. The only thing that might affect that here. Is that Leinster will have more full internationals playing than normal.

molloyjh · 15-09-2022 8:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620140#Comment_119620140

I’d say that’s a bit optimistic from Balacoune perspective. Had he gone to NZ it would have been JOB who would have lost out. And that while Conway and Stockdale were injured.

We’ll be bringing 5 back 3 players to France. Keenan, Hansen and Lowe are nailed on. That leaves 2 spots for Conway, Stockdale, Larmour, Lowry and Balacoune. And when you look at the case for Balacoune, it’s not a strong one.

The 3 nailed on players don’t offer much versatility, which is something we’ll probably want in at least 1 of the back 3 players. Earls and Larmour fit that mould, Earls being the man in possession. Stockdale offers the untidy element that Farrell and Catt seem to like. They looked to use that part of his skill set from FB initially but have since used it from Lowe on the wing. They’ll probably look at him as a live option for wing on that basis.

All of the above plus Conway have been in Ireland camp loads and played 6 Nations and/or big Tests outside of the 6Ns. Only Larmour in that group could be deemed to have not delivered. Balacoune, for all his form and talent, doesn’t really offer any of the above.

For me, Larmour and Balacoune will both miss out (injuries notwithstanding). And who gets called up due to injury might depend on who is injured. Lose Earls and Larmour probably gets the call, otherwise Balacoune does. Where Lowry fits in (or who is back up FB) is a tough one to call. But whoever that is could be another player that Balacoune would have to leap frog.

Former Former Former · 15-09-2022 8:56am

Yeah, if Baloucoune had been fit for NZ, Jimmy O'Brien would have had the summer off, but after that, there is a lot of really good traffic to get through.

If the RWC was tomorrow, you'd have to think Hansen would be in pole for right wing and Conway next.

I think Baloucoune is going to SA so the coaches can have a good long look at him, rather than him genuinely being an "emerging" player, but that might be a double edged sword.

If Larmour can stay fit and start this season like he finished the last, he'll be back in the mix too but you feel that there isn't enough road for all these guys.

Paul Smeenus · 15-09-2022 9:00am

We'll see, I suppose. It's a year away. I think Baloucoune's a better player than Conway, and Farrell, more than any previous Irish coach, seems unbothered by pecking orders and reputation. Your point about versatility is well made though.

Zeugnis · 15-09-2022 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620419#Comment_119620419

Earls turns 35 in October, I'd be very surprised if he makes the cut for the RWC. My guess is that he'll make his 100 and that will be that.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620418#Comment_119620418

Leinster are supplying a third of the players. Including McCarthy, Deegan, Penney, Osbourne and Frawley who would all be probably in the starting 23. Along with Soroka and Clarkson who would be there or there abouts.

The Leinster starting 23? Is that really accurate tho? I'd say maybe 2 of those at best, and that accounting for injuries and form.

The reality is, the other Provinces are mising more players further up their depth chart. And guys in other Provinces starting 23 are more valuable to them than Leinster because, well, depth.

All the provinces are affected. That affect as expected will cause minimal disruption. If you think this will have a material affect on results. Please explain how?

It's a pretty nebulous thing; by definition, there's no definitive way of saying "if we had played player X, we would have won". But, taking Baloucoune as an obvious example, he's clearly a player capable of changing a result.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 9:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620532#Comment_119620532

Conway does seem to be a Farrell favourite tho; Farrell's unbotheredness (?) by pecking orders worked in Conway's favour, where he started ahead of Earls in Farrell's first Test.

Personally think Hansen and Conway are the front-runners at the moment, but that could well change, not least down to injuries. All our wingers tho seem to have something to set them apart from the rest . e.g. Conway in the air, Larmour footwork, Lowe physicality and offloading. It could also come down to what Farrell is looking for.

starkid · 15-09-2022 9:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620179#Comment_119620179

classy again with the insult. sure come out swinging, why not?

but no thats not what i meant at all. but since you bring it up, it could be debated for sure. it was definitely noticable in soccer up until recently ( i worked as an analyst for an agent at youth football tournaments)and also before you say another word just know i have a mixed race daughter myself. so don't try to paint this as anything.

Rugby in this country has been slow to break the traditional bonds. thankfully that is slowly changing. more is needed. to say it was backboned by a small set of schools and traditions is not controversial. but of course you of all posters could make it so. same in England, Genge and Jones were totally correct in what they said about English rugby. no player has been ignored and it would be impossible to prove otherwise. however unconcious bias is a thing.

We have huge communities of Polish, Latvian, European, African, Asian etc some even third generation now. its great we are finally being able to tap into it. Munster have two twin brothers with eastern european heritage playing schools. absolute units. anyway i think some of the issues are too complext to talk about here and lead down a rabbit hole. the same debates abound in NFL scouting etc. Jordan COnroy is a prime example. his pace simply wouldnt be ignored in other countries. and while its debatable, his athleticism most likely comes from his heritage. Baloucoune was nearly missed by the system as well, but fortunately (maybe due to the way schools are there and not bound by private hang ups) he was recognised. Somebody like Conor Owende who i played against a few times was very unlucky to miss out on a pro career. Unreal player and a better player than Jerry Sexton was. Look who missed out on the most recent Olympics which as O'Sullivan said was a shocking decision. https://andscape.com/features/implicit-bias-and-the-nfl-draft/ a possible reverse thing going on here? Most likely not but don't pretend its not something that is or can't bediscussed. Other nations have similar issues, look at old comments from certain commentators about Maori or Islander players etc, the finer details of what Genge and Jones were saying. this country has been slow to change, and as i know personally myself there is still a racism issue in this country.

HOWEVER i was mainly recognising it as great. As i said it was done in soccer and athletics. its important to recognise it in rugby. Obvious Nij was a great representative, unfortunately just wasn't good enough. some of the young guns could be generational talents. Edogbo and his brother look like future stars, also out of non traditional cobh. its great to see. so stop spinning it into a thing.

lets move on but i needed to set you straight. of course he is there on merit, you are inventing things i didn't say.

and we are pretty close to the point where nobody bats an eyelid. but people do recognise it. and thats mainly what i was doing.

Irish rugby has broken some interesting ground in all facets. Nick McCarthy, Dunne was fantastic. next i would love to see Irish rugby break into the inner city. people talk of the US etc, we can't even get the game loved here in certain pockets. Again not a controversial thing to say.

ANYWAY I will shut up about off topic stuff....

Obviously to bring it back to the current point, damaging the URC with these tours, weakening the AIL won't help as its the vehicle the game is driven on but on the other hand getting say a bronze at least in the Rugby World Cup would help. winning it could transform the sport on this ISland. so if thats what the coaches think this tour will help with, fine. Jackman and Fitzgerald didn't think much of it. and i tend to agree.

Actually i thought Okeke might have a shot for this tour (i thought Deegan and Kendallan would be deemed provincially needed). Ironically now he'll probably get a few appearances off the bench for Munster. maybe its a win win tour. young guys with Ireland, and some young guys with provinces. And thats clearly positive.

Also i wonder why Vakh wasn't selected(which fits into the same discussion). i think he's talented enough to become a full international. which again would be great for this country.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620547#Comment_119620547

The Leinster starting 23? Is that really accurate tho? I'd say maybe 2 of those at best, and that accounting for injuries and form.

We are talking about the Leinster 23 for a URC match in October here, not a champions cup final. Yes all of those players would most definitely be in frame for the starting 23.

molloyjh · 15-09-2022 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620545#Comment_119620545

Maybe, but the versatility thing is probably going to be important. And Balacoune is pretty much a right wing only. Given the talent ahead of him and his lack of versatility, plus his lack of experience in the team and at that level, he has it all to do IMO.

As PS said above though, Farrell has been happy to parachute guys in when he reckons they deserve it, so those issues are probably less of a blocker for him than they may have been under another coach.

awec · 15-09-2022 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620737#Comment_119620737

You're still not seeing it.

For other provinces, even with their internationals back, the players they are losing are high up the depth charts. Many of them are still first 23 players, some are even first 15.

starkid · 15-09-2022 10:16am

not utilising Balacoune will be criminal.

They clearly rate him. Obviously he's on the tour for this reason. rather than a sort of punishment/demotion.

However if he doesn't get game time in Nov it will be ridiculous.

His pace is something we simply cannot ignore.

Obvs injuries played a factor but he was wasted last Nov, he can't get experience if not given the chance.

starkid · 15-09-2022 10:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620816#Comment_119620816

yeah the only response you need to give is Jackman's comments. he clearly knows in at least this instance what he's talking about. of course it doesn't tally with what Easterbuy saids or wants (as another poster tried to argue). thats a given.

"Realistically, what can we find out? If Ciaran Frawley has a stormer against the Griquas, what's it worth? Jackman sums it up in one sentence basically.

being on tour with no real pressure does nothing for the reality of a World Cup.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 10:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620737#Comment_119620737

That's exactly the point tho; if any of the other provinces were playing a champions cup final (and lord knows we're miles away from that), they're missing players who would be in that 23. Leinster aren't.

The reality is, other provinces are missing players higher up their depth chart. (Not as many as I initially feared when the Maori game was mentioned, and not so many that I think it's a massive problem, but I absolutely understand why fans of other Provinces could be annoyed).

Particularly Ulster tbh; last season they were 2 80+ min tries away from a home final. Either of those go the other way, and they could've been looking at their first silverware since 2006.

Put another way, it'd essentially be the equivalent of Ulster losing Rob Lyttle but Leinster losing James Lowe.

starkid · 15-09-2022 10:26am

i mean lets be honest its also a weird squad.

Deeny selected. has barely played in 2 years i think, and other locks left out. Like if it was really about some prep would Thornbury or Murray etc not be there.

it kind of makes no sense in any aspect.

Paul Smeenus · 15-09-2022 10:29am

Do they want to find anything out, though? Is this really an opportunity for these players to "prove" anything? Or do the coaches just want to have time training with them and familiarising them with Ireland's systems?

starkid · 15-09-2022 10:30am

yeah so why not hold a camp in Ireland or play locally. none of it makes sense. the lack of Andy Farrell, the opposition and location (as a sop to the SARU most likely), the squad, the timing.

none of it will matter come the World Cup. Easterbuy basically said he wants Frawley to run the tour like Sexton, see what he's made of. but against the likes of the griqas, the answer has to be so what?

its the equivalent of playing Bayonne in 03. its a nothing burger.

and if its about the future as some suggest, well then why not play in the normal windows or shock horror filter a few guys into games against the weaker teams or again shock horror in the numerous a games.

awec · 15-09-2022 10:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620891#Comment_119620891

If it's the later a few days in Blanchardstown would have been much cheaper and less disruptive.

Former Former Former · 15-09-2022 10:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620816#Comment_119620816

I count two first XV players in Baloucoune and Prendergast. Two possibles in Blade and Kendellen. After that, it's wider squad players.

Don't think any province is particularly hard hit really but Leinster certainly aren't.

It's an odd idea but really the impact on provinces is pretty minimal (and of short duration)

connachta · 15-09-2022 11:13am

The issue is not now. It's about potential injuries

Josh Muprhy for Prendergast

Marmion for Blade with prominsig Colm Reilly to play barely 15 min behind

Stewart experience for D Tiernay Martin

that ok

But

If Murphy/Marms/Stewart got injured

It's Devine, De Buitlear, Booth who comes behind, Academy and no pro games behind them.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621102#Comment_119621102

Additionally, if touring players return injured (which, inevitably, you’d imagine some will) it’s likely to attract more negative comments.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620816#Comment_119620816

Who? For your best 23, only Baloucoune and Doak would be there.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620861#Comment_119620861

McCarthy and Frawley were in the 23 for the Final 4 months ago.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621273#Comment_119621273

Yep. And Baird and Larmour only returned from injury the previous week. And since then Leinster have added Jenkins too.

Shehal · 15-09-2022 12:24pm

I still get why people are getting their knickers in a twist over this? Its 2-3 weeks of valuable experience inside an international set up with top class coaches away from home....continuing to protest about this is storm in a tea cup territory.

Its like people on here are just looking for excuses to moan at this rate...

15-09-2022 12:44pm

Well good to see the URC is getting so much respect these days

Shehal · 15-09-2022 12:49pm

The same people who **** on the URC on a daily basis are now coming out in force complaining about Irish players missing URC games...which camp is it? It cant be both.