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Property and inheritance taxes should be raised, says State’s commission on tax and welfare

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    #392
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,384 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Income tax individualisation

    11.6 The Commission recommends a phased move towards individualisation of the Standard Rate Cut off Point as a step towards addressing disparities in the Income Tax system, facilitating increased employment, and decreasing the gap in the employment rate between men and women.



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    #393
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,845 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617547#Comment_119617547

    Recommendation 7.2 will further reduce liquidity in the property market, making it very difficult for people to move home. It is completely impractical.

    If someone buys a house today at €500k, and sells it in 5 years for €1m, they will be facing a capital gains tax bill, which would hamper them from trading up or if trading down, reduce what is affordable for them. It is a strange one.



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    #394
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,583 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617012#Comment_119617012

    So what percentage are we talking about?



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    #395
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users Posts: 12,676 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617451#Comment_119617451

    Absolute scum the government are just so they can look great to their EU buddy's let's ride the middle classes ( that's a joke) keep funding NGO's and keep taking more and more into this country. Can't even let the house to your kids without the government takinga big chunk in taxation.

    Tell you what let's make highly paid civil servants sackable for poor performance and no pay increases for anyone in the civil service earning more then 50K

    Fed up of this kip of a country



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    #396
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Allinall


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617833#Comment_119617833

    It's not a government report.



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    #397
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users Posts: 12,676 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617840#Comment_119617840

    But it is presented to the minister and he will implement a lot of it probably by stealth.

    The cowards gave up the Corporation tax without much of a fight.



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    #398
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,384 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613742#Comment_119613742

    From my memory, in the 2020 GE, SF propose to increase CAT from 33% to 36%, to raise 45m in extra tax.

    2020_GE_SF_Manifesto.pdf




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    #399
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615884#Comment_119615884

    This is where we are beating dogs listen to the amount of plucking taxes being paid and you think its normal??. The chains of tax needs to be broken in this country the more we pay the more they waste and the worse our services become. As I said there needs to be marches if there is any extra tax forced on our people. We pay enough where is the State commission on spend and where they are going to cut the fat.



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    #400
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,384 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617938#Comment_119617938

    Some of what you say is false, but I agree with you on some issues, e.g. waste in the HSE, too early starting of the 48.5% marginal tax rate.

    However, the general pop are shifting away from your view, and are voting more for higher tax parties.

    The support for SF is rising, and they want to increase taxes.



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    #401
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617968#Comment_119617968

    Have they got a majority yet? What have I said thats false? Our spend is out of control and the proof is 240Billion of debt and being the third most indebted country in the world. Until this is gone through route and branch there should be no more taxes in any guise.



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    #402
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,242 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617968#Comment_119617968

    Only because the high tax parties are saying that only the "wealthy" need to pay more tax. That sounds absolutely brilliant when you're on low income or on welfare. Of course you want the "rich" bogeyman paying more as long as you don't have to.



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    #403
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭combat14


    time for an increase in corporate tax and the introduction of a wealth tax, lower earners will have to contribute something as well - middle earners are being absolutely financially raped with taxes in this country - time to leave at this stage if any more taxes are introduced for ordinary workers who are already contributing more than their fair share....



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    #404
    Economics101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭Economics101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617968#Comment_119617968

    You seem to say that because high tax parties are getting more support than the Commission's position is OK. The Commission is supposed to be non-party-political; it should not allow its views to be influenced by SF polling. That's why we have Commissions which are supposed to rise above the party-political fray.



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    #405
    mohawk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617968#Comment_119617968

    Problem with listening to SF is that it’s the middle that will pay the tax.

    The wealthy have the means to stay wealthy and will just invest and keep their assets abroad far away from revenue.



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    #406
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617899#Comment_119617899

    No they didn't. They maintained the Corporation tax level against significant EU opposition for decades.

    The "gave it up" when there was an OECD movement (i.e. basically all economies worth caring about globally) to set a baseline only marginally above what ours was anyway.



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    #407
    xxxxxxl
    Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617899#Comment_119617899

    Haha I remember that red line alright. Always said they will do what they are told. Remember them all saying it's never on the table or EU cannot this that and the other. Yet here we are. Reminds me of the fines for no water charges that we never got EU must have forgotten about that or as people said it's up to the state to decide.



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    #408
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,384 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618276#Comment_119618276


    Well perhaps I didn't explain myself.

    Fliball123 is correct that we have a huge public debt, and also correct that we are biased towards budget deficits..

    There are few politicians calling for prudent public spending, cutting foreign aid, cutting waste in the HSE, etc.

    I would like more mature politicians, who take harder decisions.

    However, maybe people are voting SF as a protest against the Govt/housing crisis, and I sort of can't really blame them.

    Yet many of the same people are against higher taxes.

    I wonder do all the new supporters of SF realise they plan to increase many taxes.



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    #409
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,845 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619541#Comment_119619541

    SF now are Labour 2011, people think that they are voting for something different, and they are, it is just not the different that they are looking for.



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    #410
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,049 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119617840#Comment_119617840

    So not one cent of taxpayers money went it to paying and feeding it's authors or for the running of the commission. If you would kindly prove that, I'd be obliged.



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    #411
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619541#Comment_119619541

    Lets be clear we are paying high taxes as it is I am arguing paying no more on top of what we are already on the hook for ( if that comment about high taxes is aimed at me about not paying high taxes). I feel it repulsive to ask anyone to pay more while the money is just p1ssed away. The spend side needs addressing and after all fat and bloat that is there is cut by all means if we need more taxation then we need more taxation.



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    #412
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,845 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619922#Comment_119619922

    That doesn't make it a government report.



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    #413
    bluedex
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭bluedex


    Can anyone who thinks Property Tax is fairer than Income Tax please explain? I'm genuinely curious.

    Income tax is broadly a % of income you earn, while property tax is a payment of cash on a non-earning principal private residence, as well as other non PPR properties obviously.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



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    #414
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621413#Comment_119621413

    Property tax taxes wealth rather than income and is very hard to avoid.

    A retired person living in a mansion is wealthier than a PAYE worker spending half their paycheck on rent.



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    #415
    bluedex
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭bluedex


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621469#Comment_119621469

    For a start, you don't know how much income a retired person in a bigger house has. Secondly, how is it fairer because it's hard to avoid? Thirdly, how is fairer than income tax if you have two neighbours, one earns 40k and one earns 60k, they both pay the same amount of property tax.

    The question is not whether LPT is fair, but how can it be considered fairer than Income Tax?

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



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    #416
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,384 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621413#Comment_119621413


    Property taxes are superior in many ways, this has been known for 100 years, since the days of Henry George.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George


    The best type of property tax is an SVT, which is a tax on land, not on the building itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax


    It is good that the COTW proposes a SVT on all land, excluding residential land.

    The problem with a residential SVT is that most people can't separate the value of their property into site value + house value.



    Advantages of property taxes

    (1) property taxes do not cause the labour supply to fall. The 48.5% marginal tax rate in Ireland on incomes over 36/37k approx causes people to refuse overtime, progression, promotion, and to work less, and you can't blame them.

    In contrast, nobody will ever refuse extra work due to the LPT.

    The negative distortions due to taxes are much less with property taxes

    I see a quote that land taxes are "the perfect taxes". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax


    (2) property taxes are difficult to evade, as you can't hide land/houses

    (3) property taxes tend to be a stable source of revenue, it doesn't go up and down as much as income and consumption taxes, less linked to the economic cycle

    (4) property taxes are natural as local taxes, which is why many/most countries use property taxes to finance local governments.


    Have a read of ch 16 of the Mirrlees report on Optimal Design of Taxes

    https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-08/16.%20The%20taxation%20of%20land%20and%20property.pdf


    https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/output_url_files/adam_0311.pdf



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    #417
    JPCN1
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭JPCN1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615465#Comment_119615465

    Fairly sure thats now gone...



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    #418
    bluedex
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭bluedex


    You see an awful lot of waffle and BS from economists and various studies re Property Tax. Economists and academics love property taxes, in the real world everyone else hates them more than all other taxes.

    Income taxes are considered to be progressive, Property Taxes regressive, Sales and consumption taxes very regressive.

    Progressive is fairer and better than regressive when it comes to tax, so Income taxes are fairer and better than property taxes. FACT! :)

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



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    #419
    bluedex
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭bluedex


    • For average families, a home represents the lion’s share of their total wealth, so most of their wealth is taxed. At high income levels, however, homes are only a small share of total wealth, which mostly consists of stock portfolios, business interests, and other assets that are generally completely exempt from property taxes.
    • For homeowners, home values as a share of income tend to decline at higher incomes. For example, a typical middle-income family’s home might be worth 6 times as much as the family’s annual income, while a wealthy person’s home might be valued at twice his or her annual income or potentially much less.
    • Renters do not escape property taxes. A portion of the property tax on rental property is passed through to renters in the form of higher rent — and these taxes represent a much larger share of income for poor families than for the wealthy. This adds to the regressivity of the property tax.


    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



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    #420
    Ellie2008
    Registered Users Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭Ellie2008


    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/it-broke-me-when-my-son-put-a-pillow-between-us-in-the-air-bed-and-said-look-its-like-we-have-our-own-room-41990424.html

    I will qualify the below by saying I haven’t the full article. On the face if it - a 24 year old has two kids and is looking for a council house. It is very unfair to expect the taxpayer to subsidise that life choice. Of course you are going be under stress when you can’t afford them.



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    #421
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,583 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621579#Comment_119621579

    Average house prices in ireland at the minute are around the €300K mark and while there are plenty of taxes associated with buying/building/owning a home the reality is if you are passing on an asset of this value to your kids after passing they get it tax free (currently) - on average.



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