Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dubinusa · 15-09-2022 1:04pm

The URC is now a decent league! The bokke teams ensure that! Leinster won6breeze into a final.

This tour is bizarre, imo. Sam Illo is as close to an international team as I am!. Deeny also! The timing is poor, the opposition is poor and besides learning systems and the set up, how many of these players will make it as international class players?

I suppose it's something different and maybe a couple of lads can claw their way up into the fringes of the international set up. This should have happened pre season or during an international window.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 1:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621313#Comment_119621313

You are second guessing selections though. Even if they had been fit, how can you be sure that either would have been in the 23 ahead of the others. McCarthy could have been selected for size. Frawley was very much a more likely pick than Larmour even if Jordan was fit. He has been an integral part of the match day 23 all season.

The fact remains we are losing two players who were good enough to make match day squad for the final of the premier competition in Europe. You can try play it down all you want but they are significant players for Leinster. As are Deegan and Penney.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621774#Comment_119621774

You are second guessing selections though

Yep, there's an element of guessing involved, but I don't think the depth chart I posted is a million miles off either. (And I'd disagree entirely with your assessment that Frawley was very much a more likely pick than Larmour even if Jordan was fit. Frawley was the only player that day who didn't come off the bench).

With regards this:

...they are significant players for Leinster. As are Deegan and Penney.

Would you say there are as significant for Leinster as, say Doak and Baloucoune are for Ulster? Or Prendergast and Blade are for Connacht? They clearly aren't. That's the whole point.

sydthebeat · 15-09-2022 2:46pm

round 1

ulster play connacht this weekend, so both teams down some squad players = argument negated for both teams for this weekend.

round 2

ulster and connacht both away.

connacht away to stormers who will be without their test players due to rugby championship =argument negated for connacht

ulster should have enough for scarlets away

round 3

connacht away to bulls, without their test players = argument negated for connacht

ulster home to leinster, both teams down squad players = argument negated for ulster

so between ulster and connacht im really only seeing 1 game where you could possibly argue a team has been put at an unfair advantage, and that ulster away to scarlets.

awec · 15-09-2022 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622108#Comment_119622108

This is a really bizarre take, I'm going to be honest.

Why do you think both teams having players away negates the argument?

Why do you think another team not having their test players negates the argument?

aloooof · 15-09-2022 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622108#Comment_119622108

This is too simplistic, and built on the assumption the players missing have equal significance to their Provinces. Which is not true.

The reality is Baloucoune and Doak, and Prendergast and Blade are more significant losses to Ulster and Connacht then Frawley and McCarthy are to Leinster. Drawing an equivalence there is just not accurate.

Put simply, do you think all Provinces are losing players at equal levels of their depth chart?

(And as an aside, if, say, Connacht have an advantage over the SA teams due to the RC and the format, we should be trying to maximise that, not even if up for the benefit of the SA teams. And speaking of unfair advantage, Connacht themselves are already at a disadvantage with the additional interpro's).

phog · 15-09-2022 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622108#Comment_119622108

I have to say my first thought on this - that's nonsense.

sydthebeat · 15-09-2022 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622236#Comment_119622236

Put simply, do you think all Provinces are losing players at equal levels of their depth chart?

when ulster play connacht yes.

when ulster play leinster no, but it likely ulster will have their NZ tour contingent back, where thats not certain for leinster

(im basing that on minutes played on tour)

when connacht play stormers and bulls , most certainly.

and as for your last sentence in brackets, thats basically complaining that youre not getting an unfair advantage. Now i realise youre a munster fan, and im just commenting on connacht and ulster here, so ill maybe leave those fans to comment if they are looking for an unfair advantage or not.

sydthebeat · 15-09-2022 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622202#Comment_119622202

Why do you think both teams having players away negates the argument?

why do i think both teams been down squad players negates the argument for complaining that one team is down squad players over another team.... hummm ????? one is an unfair advantage, the other isnt. if you cant see that then ill suggest there some other reason than logic stopping you from seeing it.

same response for your second point, its illogical to view it in any other way.

one might think some fans are just looking for something at all to whinge about, without taking a minute to actually consider the situation.

sydthebeat · 15-09-2022 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622287#Comment_119622287

nothing in my post is unfactual, so to describe it as nonsense is a fair stretch

AdamD · 15-09-2022 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621518#Comment_119621518

People's main misgiving about the league is it not being taken seriously and here we have the IRFU taking players away from the league to play less opposition in SA, i.e. not taking it seriously. It makes perfect sense for people who give out about the URC to hate this idea

awec · 15-09-2022 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622346#Comment_119622346

I genuinely think some people just cannot see the issue here, it's sailing over their head.

It does not matter if the IRFU say they'll take 1 player from Connacht and 1 player from Ulster, this does not mean it's ok, this does not mean any disadvantage has been negated, this does not mean there is no disruption. It is absolutely impossible to quantify the loss to either team in any way that you can stand and say this has no consequences.

I genuinely have no idea how you think a team not having their test players means it's ok to arbitrarily make other players unavailable.

If the WRU did this they'd be slated for it, and rightly so. And I guarantee you not a single person on here would be saying "ah sure, the Welsh are taking a bunch of their players away, but we'll rest our test players so it actually doesn't matter at all", or "well, the Dragons are losing 5 players and we have 5 players on our injury list, so that totally negates any problems".

phog · 15-09-2022 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622352#Comment_119622352

If every team in the URC had squad of 45 players does that mean every team is equal - because your argument seems to lean towards that way of thinking.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622319#Comment_119622319

But again, your argument is built on the assumption the players missing have equal significance to their Provinces. They don't. Prendergast and Blade are way more important to Connacht than Frawley and McCarthy are to Leinster. And they're playing each other in Round 4; the tour spans Rounds 3 and 4, so the fixtures directly impacted are:

Ulster: Leinster (h), Ospreys (h)

Munster: Zebre (h), Connacht (a)

Leinster: Ulster (a), Sharks (h)

Connacht: Munster (h), Leinster (h).

And we know momentum counts. Connacht have a pretty horrible opening run of fixtures, and this adds another element to contend with.

...and as for your last sentence in brackets, thats basically complaining that youre not getting an unfair advantage.

Nope; it's acknowledging that if an unfair advantage exists by the vagaries of the format (which it does) I'd want my Province to be looking to make the most of it. Whatever way you frame it, ultimately an advantage Connacht otherwise would have had is now reduced.

(I've refrained from mentioning Munster here, as I largely think, given the fixtures, they don't come off too badly).

CIARAN_BOYLE · 15-09-2022 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621549#Comment_119621549

I feel there's less than 10 players they care about in terms of the international team.

2-3 that have a genuine chance at making a world Cup 33, 5-7 that have a chance of a call up in case of injuries.

The rest of the squad are are players that don't get enough game time and wouldn't get any game time in urc getting a run out for development purposes.

TRC10 · 15-09-2022 4:17pm

Ironically, this tour will probably make it less likely that Frawley see's game time at 10 for Leinster this season. Since Leo and Lancaster know they'll be losing him for 3 games soon, I imagine they'll be much more likely to go with Ross Byrne at the start of the season to minimise disruption.

If the Ireland coaches really do see Frawley as the natural successor at 10, they should have done to Leinster what they did to Ulster 4 years ago when they didn't let them extend Pienaar's contract so they could install Cooney at 9, and not allowed Ross Byrne's contract be extended last season.

If they could do that to Ulster, why couldn't they do it to Leinster? Well, I think people can figure that one out themselves. The IRFU have no problem screwing the other provinces over for their benefit, but they don't want to upset the apple cart at Leinster.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622506#Comment_119622506

Nah, different scenario, the obvious point of difference being Pienaar was an NIQ player.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621818#Comment_119621818

Doak who is very clearly second choice at Ulster?

Baloucoune is the most significant player for Ulster to be involved in this. One player, if that is what you regard as significant disruption. Then we can agree to disagree.

Connacht are arguably most affected in terms of players lost. Prendergast being the most significant loss. Blade not so much so if Marmion is fit but still a key player for them. Would either be the winning or losing of a game. I really don’t think so.

No one has ever said there won’t be disruption to squads. There will but ultimately I can’t see how people think this will be the winning or losing of any game.

I doubt one single player named in that squad will be bemoaning then fact they got picked and would prefer to be at home playing for their province.

As Paul pointed out earlier. With a jam packed season, there is no perfect time for this. It works for the Irish setup and ultimately the provinces serve that purpose.

15-09-2022 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622108#Comment_119622108

I mean, any material disadvantage should be balancing out during the six nations - not the next few weeks.

That said - the emerging Ireland tour is unlikely to be an annual event given it looks to be part of the World Cup build up. As such - I've no issue with it at all and whilst the opposition isn't great, there is a lot to be gained from a tour experience over a couple of weeks that can't really be replicated in weekend away fixtures.

aloooof · 15-09-2022 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622531#Comment_119622531

Doak who is very clearly second choice at Ulster?

Yes, Doak who is clearly 2nd choice at Ulster is a more significant loss than, 3rd/4th choice lock McCarthy is to Leinster. Again, that's exactly the point.

Baloucoune is the most significant player for Ulster to be involved in this. One player, if that is what you regard as significant disruption. Then we can agree to disagree.

To be fair, I never said significant disruption since the squad was announced. All I'm saying is I can understand why, say, Ulster or Connacht fans may feel a little aggrieved.

Connacht are arguably most affected in terms of players lost. Prendergast being the most significant loss. Blade not so much so if Marmion is fit but still a key player for them. Would either be the winning or losing of a game. I really don’t think so.

Connacht were involved in 7 1-score games in the URC last season. Ulster were involved in 9. It'll be impossible to ever know, but it could be the winning and losing of a game, in what is likely to be a very tight table again this season.

But I think at this point you're right that we can just leave it there and agree to disagree.

Former Former Former · 15-09-2022 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622529#Comment_119622529

Well, the obvious point of difference is that they'd need a time machine to go back to February, not renew Byrne's contract, then zip forward to now and instal Frawley as back-up 10.

I think Andy Farrell's refusal to bend the fabric of space and time is the clearest indication yet that it's all a pro-Leinster conspiracy.

ersatz · 15-09-2022 5:32pm

@TRC10 People are getting silly now, comparing non IQ pienar to RB’s contract extension, please. This will have no impact on Frawleys time at ten for Leinster, in fact it will give him 2 or 3 decent games at ten on tour, and more’s the point that if coaches are picking RB at ten, Frawley will be in the mix for the bench. At the level of most URC games his performance in NZ alone would guarantee that. Their options aren’t great given that HB barely played, did he crack two hundred minutes last season? Come on, Leinster coaches aren’t stupid.

Khan77 · 15-09-2022 5:45pm

Is Harry Byrne still injured? The rationale for him going on this jamboree would be very similar to Baloucoune given they have both missed a lot of rugby in the past year.

Must love hardship · 15-09-2022 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621774#Comment_119621774

2 players who saw a grand total of 4 minutes in that final between them.

Leinster really used their bench very very poorly in that final.

O'Gara and La Rochelle really taught the Leinster management a lesson with his superior use of the bench.

If after this Tour Frawley comes back having nailed down the 3rd choice Irish outhalf Jersey. Then the tour is nearly justified for that one reason alone.. similarly if Doak shows he can manage the game plan at 9 or joe Mccarthy or max Deegan show they can be pack leader.

There are many positives Ireland can gain from this tour.

Its not perfect by any means but covid hampered the last 2 years and this sort of a tour would have been held then under normal circumstances.

Bogwoppit · 15-09-2022 6:22pm

Looking at this squad I’m now thinking that this tour is being done purely to get game time into a 3 or 4 of the squad, mainly Frawley, Blade and Balacoune.

I think Blade may well be ahead of Casey come the WC and I think the Ireland Management now see Frawley as Sexton’s long term successor, this is a way for them to push that process on quicker than just leaving their development to the provinces and on the fringes of the Ireland match day squads.

If Frawley performs any way well on this tour he’ll be well up the pecking order come the AI’s.

awec · 15-09-2022 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622581#Comment_119622581

The people who keep saying "sure it's only 1 or 2 players" just keep missing the point. Missing any player who is in with a shout of playing league games for this reason is unacceptable.

You are always going to have players injured, that's just the reality. Outside of injury, and outside of extreme / unforeseen circumstances, the expectation is (quite rightly) that the rest of the squad is available to play matches. This is why, in literally any other league of this sport, and any other sport in fact, this idea would be laughed out of the room as ridiculous. This is how competitive integrity is maintained.

Players are being taken away from their clubs, outside of a test window, to go play absolutely nothing fixtures in SA. If Dan McFarland wanted to pick Stewart Moore against Leinster he cannot, because Stewart Moore is away playing low-level nothing matches on the other side of the world. If Dan McFarland decided he wanted to play Nathan Doak, he cannot for the same reason. This is not only incredibly stupid, but it's very disrespectful.

This is worse than anything the WRU have ever done. It's worse than the 4th test in the Autumn. This is, IMO, the clearest indication we have ever seen that the powers that be do not care whatsoever about the URC. The competition is treated with disdain, it's just there to fill the weeks in.

stephen_n · 15-09-2022 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623139#Comment_119623139

This is worse than anything the WRU have ever done. It's worse than the 4th test in the Autumn. This is, IMO, the clearest indication we have ever seen that the powers that be do not care whatsoever about the URC. The competition is treated with disdain, it's just there to fill the week

That’s known as projection

molloyjh · 15-09-2022 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620891#Comment_119620891

I’d imagine it isn’t any one thing. It would be different things for different players. But getting them familiar with the systems, getting them to work on specific things (most likely in the cases of Frawley and Balacoune) and then seeing how they apply those things in a match day situation would be, at a high level, what they are after. How that worked for them in the Māori games seems to be cited as the driver.

molloyjh · 15-09-2022 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622506#Comment_119622506

This is total garbage. Total and absolute horse manure. One of the most badly thought out posts I’ve seen on this forum. It’s incredible really.

Ulster couldn’t re-sign Peinaar because they hadn’t produced a single IQ scrum half in years. They imported one (Boss) and immediately dropped him for Peinaar when the latter arrived. Having a province provide no realistic IQ players in a specialist position is not a runner in the medium term. And so Peinaar was not extended.

Absolutely none of the above is true of Leinster, the 10 shirt or Ross Byrne. The two things are in no way, shape or form comparable. And it’s beyond bizarre to try and equate the two to pedal a laughable provincial bias line.

We often disagree on things, but I’m actually stunned at how insane a take this is.

ersatz · 15-09-2022 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623139#Comment_119623139

awec, you normally post with great insight but you have gone on a jihad about this tour! Of course there is a cost given that the tour happens during weeks with league matches but the IRFU calculate that the upside is greater than the downside. They think IT's WORTH IT. And if we get a couple of players who make the team better come the World Cup then it is worth it. Remember, from the IRFU's perspective EVERYTHING is designed to make the Irish team better. That's the mission.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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