What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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I’d also disagree with the idea that we are a tolerant and progressive society. We’re generally not, which is generally how we like things to be, because any kind of change is irksome, and change on the scale of what’s required for Irish society to become either tolerant or progressive would require us to be a very different society altogether.
Oh I would agree, we're not particularly tolerant. Well beyond our general inclination towards "shure it'll be grand" thinking. Though compared to many, if not most nations outside the west we are. After all we've gone from a conservative religious culture where talk of rubber johnnies on the Late Late could reduce bishops to paroxysms of hellfire to a progressive one where I can legally change my gender with little more than the flick of a pen and did so in little more than a generation.
Then again - and this is another major problem with the multiculturalist politic - nowhere is this magical land of tolerance and diversity. This naive notion of "well if we only did [insert change here] it would work"(And it's pretty much always down to the historical natives of a nation to make these changes). Only there isn't an example of a western multicultural nation where it does. There isn't an example of a western multicultural nationwhere the exact same demographic trends don't happen. You would think that after decades, centuries in some cases, this melting pot diversity thing would bring forth a shining example to us all, but nope.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Wait a second, being tolerant doesn't mean that you need to like and accept the things you tolerate, you just need to let them be. Given that, Ireland is extremely tolerant, much more tolerant than other European countries and definitely much more tolerant than all the "diverse" countries.
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You have some very good points.
In relation to what happened to Paul Murphy, I wouldn't be condoning their actions at all. The fringe extremists are not helping anyone with that carry on and undermining the rest of us, giving way to us all being called "far right".
I would like to see a middle ground of some sort on immigration, between the left and the right. A reasonable public discussion with the government and of course peaceful.
I want to apologise to you for any negative comments I have made against you in the "other" thread. It was wrong of me to do so.
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I'd say that's it's easy to call for tolerance when you don't have much involvement with different/diverse groups. TBH, I suspect that we're becoming less tolerant as a society due to all the endeavours to make us a more tolerant environment. Apart from the usual anti-English "joking" rhetoric, I'd never really seen much racism in Ireland, even when I had Asian or Black friends come visit (even 20 years ago), and while homophobic comments were once common, they disappeared remarkably quickly... and yet, now I find that my non-White friends in Ireland say they're experiencing far more racist attitudes than ever before. A lot of that is the guilt by association along skin colour, rather than nationality, but it remains a factor nonetheless.
The important part though is that most of these efforts to make us more tolerant have backfired drastically. I've lived considerably long periods in Asian and countries with predominately Black populations, and it's taken coming back to Ireland for me to become less tolerant.
Utterly bizarre the way this all "works out".
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I’d argue that Irish society is still as conservative now as it was then, just that we’re still as good at keeping it to ourselves for the most part, in the spirit of “sure it’ll be grand”, because for the most part, it still is, for most people. That’s why it’s difficult to get people riled up about anything that they don’t feel has any direct impact upon them.
It’s not as though there weren’t gender benders, freaks and weirdos even in the heyday of the Catholic Church and its influence on Irish society and culture. I always think of the relationship as more of a chicken and egg thing - which came first, the influence of the Church, or the permission it gave to people who had notions about themselves, and notions about anyone who didn’t align with their world view.
I think people gave up on pretending to be in thrall to the Church at a time when there was an avalanche of scandals, an abundance of perceived wealth spurred on by American capitalism as seen on MTV, and the pursuit of European continentalism as experienced by people’s ability to afford to travel abroad by choice, and not out of necessity. Nostalgia has the effect of creating a fantasy of its own for people who remember a time when things were simpler and there wasn’t the proliferation of the Internet, as pervasive as it is now in people’s daily lives.
I don’t think it’s people who are conservative are struggling at all with what’s become of Ireland, I think it’s people who are more of a liberal bent have become disenfranchised by a monster of their own making. Consider for example that in Ireland in the 80’s, RTE were showing Mike Murphy interviewing Mr. Pussy, billed as “Ireland’s Most Misleading Lady”, long before Rory O’ Neill was ever heard of, or yer man that does the Telly Bingo that all the ould biddys love, he used do Shirley Temple Bar -
https://www.rte.ie/archives/2016/0311/774189-alan-amsby-is-mr-pussy/
Then there was this crowd on the Late Late -
The 90’s were these woke jokers on Don’t Feed The Gondolas -
And then there was of course Father Ted which was really the final nail in the coffin for the Catholic Church as moral guardians of Irish society, when people just weren’t afraid to openly mock them any more as they had quite literally fallen from grace and publicly humiliated themselves.
While the Catholic Church no longer has the influence or the moral authority it once had in this country, Irish society still largely operates on a “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” unspoken understanding where, while it’s not as important that you can foot turf or puck a ball over the bar from the 40 yard line, it still means that people don’t have much time for anyone who violates the social order. Next time a thread is started on the latest unmarried mother to speak up about their shìtty situation, I guarantee it won’t get past the first page without mentioning welfare spongers, sterilisation or keeping her legs closed.
Yeah like I said:
I’d suggest ideas like being tolerant and progressive are dependent upon the premise of the idea being presented, how it’s presented, and whom it’s being presented by, will determine whether or not anyone should be expected to take it seriously or not.
The idea that people in Irish society are any more or less tolerant than people in other countries depends upon the idea itself, how it’s presented, and whom it’s presented by. We’re not any different than people from other countries, it’s simply a fact that our tolerance isn’t tested to anything like the degree people’s tolerances are tested in other European countries or all the “diverse” countries. If it were, then it stands to reason you would see the same effect as is evident in other countries where for the most part, they too don’t care much for modern “culture wars” either.
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Don't be so lazy and type it into google
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I've given out about them in the past but I honestly think that we need a citizens assembly on immigration and citizenship.
The Government seem to love just handing out citizenship to absolutely everyone that will pass to their descendants forever. No one in Irish politics seems capable of having a mature discussion and actually analysing what levels of immigration the country is capable of integrating, even sensible questions about the amount of Ukranian's we could take were met with incredulity that people could be so callous by the Government. For some reason its always dealt with on an emotional level by the Government rather than a practical one.
I don't understand why there is so much discussion about the far right and the threat they pose when the far left pose an equal threat to harmony and are actually represented by several political parties that have seats.
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I did and could not find anything to back up them stats. That's why I politely asked the original poster could they provide the source.
If you have it please post it up.
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It’s mental that it’s always right wing this and that, when in actual fact, going by Europols 2022 TE-STAT figures for 2011-2022, there were 7 times as many “left wing or anarchist terrorist attacks” compared to right wing ones. 227 compared to 32.
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It depends if we consider islamic terrorism as far right terrorism, and if you ask me, we should.
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Our Multiculturalism in Ireland is only beginning to take shape. The best is yet to come. It will improve the country in every way.
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I suspect there's an agenda at play to downplay/reduce the importance of citizenship where it applies to the native population. Multiculturalism is all about foreign groups retaining their own cultural identity, while also supporting them or providing extra benefits to that "minority" group. As such, citizenship is going to be handed out like candy to ensure that Ireland becomes more diverse, with the native group (who hold the most wealth) being taxed to support the increases in expenditure. Naturally, the native group gains no benefits or recognition (except the negative/judgmental kind) for being wealthier (on paper, or in theory, rather than in reality). Just look at Sweden who have recently scaled back and placed tighter restrictions on citizenship, because of the manner of those who came in before.
If you look at citizenship outside of western nations, it's a prized status, with serious costs involved and often a range of restrictions that still separate you from the native population.
The far right are a distraction to take attention away from the decisions of the centralists. It's not even the far left that's involved here. Sure, the far right poses some risk in Germany/France/Sweden, but in Ireland it's a laughable threat. However, if it's said enough times, people will begin to believe it. That's why there's so much interest in flattening the differences between countries, and saying that the far right in Germany, is the same as the far right in Ireland.. except it's not.
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What, you mean like Peter Sutherland, former head of the “ vampire squid” Goldman Sachs and later became UN refugee advocate or Special Advocate For International Migration or whatever you like to call it? No, it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
I mean why would someone ever want to?
When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.
Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.
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Multiculturalism is all about foreign groups retaining their own cultural identity, while also supporting them or providing extra benefits to that "minority" group. As such, citizenship is going to be handed out like candy to ensure that Ireland becomes more diverse, with the native group (who hold the most wealth) being taxed to support the increases in expenditure. Naturally, the native group gains no benefits or recognition (except the negative/judgmental kind) for being wealthier (on paper, or in theory, rather than in reality).
That’s definitely one theory as to how it works. It’s not even coming close to reality though with the idea that the native group who hold the most wealth being taxed to support any increases in expenditure, while receiving none of the benefits of same. The native group generally doesn’t have €1m to invest in the Irish economy in return for anything, while foreigners who do, receive an Irish passport in return for their investment, as well as what they contribute to the Irish economy in terms of spending on education, property, etc -
The benefits people can enjoy as permanent residents are obvious. It is conveniently located in the west of Europe near the UK which is the gateway from the world to Europe. It also boasts a beautiful natural environment and strong social welfare, in addition to a low tax burden with a corporate tax rate of 12.5%, the lowest among European countries. It also has a strong knowledge-based sector, and is a world leader in cutting-edge high-tech fields such as computer science, hosting European headquarters of many world Top 500 companies, such as Apple, Google, Facebook and Microsoft. “Those companies need a lot of employees and young immigrants don’t have to worry about employment after graduating from universities,” said Dai.
She said that among the yearly 300 families or so granted Ireland green cards in the past three years, 90 percent come from China, and among those immigrating with service from Ousheng & Partners, 50 percent come from Shanghai. “Ireland is an ideal country for Shanghai families as they have broader international vision in investment and immigration than people from other places of China and they show more demand for international education opportunities for their children,” she said. “And most Shanghai residents would not like to give up their local residency as it’s still important for them to enjoy local benefits, such as educational opportunities and health care. So the Irish green card policy is an ideal choice for them.” Dai said among 80 percent of her clients sought immigration for their kids’ education, while only 20 percent for better social welfare, medical care or other reasons. “Meanwhile, the climate in Ireland is similar to Shanghai, so it is easy for people here to adapt to life in Ireland,” she added.
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Oh, and look at this video of Peter Sutherland and someone else from Cork out for a walk during the Bilderberg group meeting in 2014. Does anyone know who this is? Look at 3.00 in the video, and 4.40 where he says its his first time at that meeting.
When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.
Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59073
More empty near religious rhetoric, with no actual reasons or facts to back up the belief. Just the belief, and a secondhand one at that. Regurgitated without critical thinking.
So what is this "best yet to come"? How will it "improve our country in every way"?*
*awaits the usual exoticism, charity and the Irish were migrants too stuff
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I’m only going by the EU’s stats. I haven’t made any considerations.
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I think they were being sarcastic. At least, that was my reading of it.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59073
These days it can be hard to tell Fandy. It's not as if we've seen pretty much exactly the same sentiment in earnest throughout the thread and in the wider general (lack of) discourse on the matter.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I’d be more interested in asking why? I mean why do you suggest Islamic terrorism should be considered as far right terrorism? They’re different ideologies. One’s a political ideology, the other is a religious ideology - different motivations.
Terrorist attacks in the EU by type (2010-2021)
This chart shows terrorist attacks in the EU between 2010 and 2021. The figures include completed, failed and foiled attacks and are broken down by year and by type: jihadist / religiously inspired, right-wing, left-wing and anarchist, ethno-nationalist and separatist, other and non-specified. Figures between 2010 and 2019 include the UK.
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/terrorism-eu-facts-figures/
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One’s a political ideology, the other is a religious ideology
Both will use racism, bigotry and religious fundamentalism to motivate their actions.
I’d be more interested in asking why?
Because the protection of freedom of religion needs to be removed from this one in order to control and contain its spread, until it's too late.
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Bigotry would be common to all ideologies, and fundamentalism is just a synonym for extremism, seeing as they’re going as far as to be involved in committing acts of terrorism. Right-wing terrorism isn’t necessarily be motivated by either racism or religion, and Islamic terrorism isn’t necessarily motivated by racism, but is motivated by religion.
I know it might seem like splitting hairs, but one of the reasons they’re classified the way they are is because of the different characteristics of either right-wing terrorism or Islamic terrorism, and their different targets and tactics. That’s why they require a more specific approach than just lumping all different types of terrorism together as though they’re motivated by fundamentally the same principles of racism, bigotry and religion.
That’s why I couldn’t see what removing religious freedom would do to tackle the issues which are caused by religious fundamentalists, because by definition they are cherry picking the parts of any religion which suits their agenda, in this case Islam.
Christian terrorism would be a different classification again, which is not as common in Europe -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
Still bears no relation to removing freedom of religion from being recognised in Human Rights Law. It’s understandable that in a country like France they would have a greater issue with Islamic terrorism than other European countries when they’re doing exactly as you suggest by trying to limit Muslim’s religious freedom, and turning a blind eye to Christian religious freedom as it’s part of the French identity.
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Some very sketchy maths going on in that report, to the tune of about €800million unaccounted for, unless it is in brown envelopes
If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.
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I’m not sure where the €800m is unaccounted for? The original article in the IT is here, if it helps?
It’s an interesting arrangement which does have it’s benefits for the Irish economy, with some Irish property developers also benefiting from the arrangement, when their property development plans aren’t being stymied by Irish celebrities -
As relationships between Irish celebrities and Irish business leaders in China go through, the best one I heard was Bono of all people, doing us a solid during Covid and using his influence to get PPE gear from China -
On that day, Liam Casey, founder and CEO of PCH International received an email from an unexpected source with an unusual subject line, ‘Bonos Días’.
“Bono here, Is this still your email? If so, can I have word in your shell-like? Would love your advice on something important. Hope you and yours are keeping safe, thanks, Bono’.”
The U2 lead singer wanted to help Ireland in its hour of need - they had set aside €10m but cash was of limited use given that the world was awash with money, governments were sending emissaries to China with bag loads of cash and their mission was go secure a supply of PPE. Product was what was needed. And Bono had turned to the right man to help navigate what can be a ‘disorienting and opaque market’.
The Donoughmore man is regarded as one of the world’s foremost experts on global supply chains, sourcing and distribution and is nicknamed Mr. China for his plants in the Asian powerhouse, the world’s leading manufacturer of PPE.
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Although, personally, I'd be fine with that because those people would have the monetary reserves/income to be fully self-sufficient.. while also already contributing to the economy/State.
I do have a particular bias, as I view Asians as being great migrants. Sound family values, generally strong traditional views, lacking any religious angle, and also tend to do very well in education and employment. I'd prefer to see more Asians coming here than just about any other ethnic group.. not because of their race, but because of their success in Western nations.
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Immigrant groups success in Western nations isn’t solely predicated upon just anyone’s stereotypes of cultural identity either, there are other factors influencing either their success in their ability to be self-sufficient, or indeed lack thereof, when they aren’t even aware of the opportunities they may have to become self-sufficient.
You’re not referring to illegal Asian immigrants, obviously, because they do just about as well in education or employment as other groups of illegal immigrants -
Illegal migration puts its victims at the mercy of organised crime networks.
A report from British charity Women for Refugee Women said it had seen increasing number of women from China detained in the Yarl's Wood immigration detention centre, many brought to Britain and forced into sexual exploitation or forced labour to "pay off" family debts.
One woman told the refugee charity that her husband owed money to a gang in China.
"One day they captured me and said I would have to go and work overseas to pay back his debt," she said.
There is speculation that an organised "snakehead" gang -- which helps smuggle migrants out of China to Europe -- could be behind this week's tragedy.
European police agency Europol warned in 2015 after an investigation that "organised crime groups from China" were trafficking victims to Europe on forged documents to work in brothels, massage parlours, nail studios or restaurants.
"Smuggled migrants from China often fly as close as possible to their destinations, landing in countries without visa requirements or where entry controls are weak," said Rebecca Miller, from the UN Office on Drugs and Crime in Bangkok.
Eastern Europe, the Baltic states, and Russia are often transits and Spain is a main entry point for smuggled Chinese nationals into the Schengen area, from where they are smuggled by car or truck to Britain.
The price can be hefty.
A report last year in the European-based The Chinese Weekly interviewed Chinese immigrants who said snakehead gangs had brought them into Britain via Spain for a cost of around 160,000 yuan ($22,600).
The migrants said the trafficker helped them prepare answers to basic questions in English and gave them false passports complete with fake British visas.
In 2013, Spanish and French police dismantled a human trafficking ring that smuggled Chinese migrants into Europe and the United States, charging up to 50,000 euros ($55,000) per person.
https://amp.france24.com/en/20191025-illegal-chinese-migration-to-europe-commonplace-despite-risks
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Islamic terrorism isn’t necessarily motivated by racism, but is motivated by religion
It is motivated by hatred towards westerners and western culture and values, which is pretty much the definition of racism/xenophobia.
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It’s not motivated by hatred towards Westerners and Western culture and values, which isn’t the anything close to the definition of racism or xenophobia either, that’s the definition of bigotry, which, when taken to it’s extreme, motivates some people to imagine they are justified in committing acts of terrorism.
Islamic terrorism is motivated by bigotry towards anyone who doesn’t share their interpretation of Islam, that’s why it’s defined as such.
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Islamic terrorism is motivated by bigotry towards anyone who doesn’t share their interpretation of Islam
That's between themselves back in the ME. What we experienced here in the west is not that, not yet anyway.
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It’s not just between themselves back in ME, it’s between themselves and anyone who doesn’t share their views in the EU, that’s what the report on terrorism in the EU was about, that’s why they used the classifications they did. Jihadism or Islamic terrorism (because I’m not going to be a pedantic fcuk about it, I know what you mean) in Europe is certainly impacted by what’s going on in other countries outside of Europe, but most of the Jihadi terrorist attacks are carried out by European natives who are Muslim, who cherry pick the bits from Islamic ideology which suits their narrative of portraying themselves as either oppressed victims, or pursuing a righteous cause.
France is a major flashpoint for it because of their strict adherence to a secular ideology and a French identity, even though Muslims were in France during the French Revolution -
When people think of 18th century France, they likely picture a very white, Catholic world. How will your book reframe the way we think about revolutionary era France?
There was a film that came out recently (“One Nation, One King,” 2018) that did a great job showing the ordinary men and women of Paris, and their part in making the Revolution. But it was frustrating to me because the cast was so white. That was in part what provoked me to look more closely at the people of eighteenth-century France and how diverse they really were. It wasn’t always easy to follow the paths of Muslims in France, because they weren’t usually recorded as such. But I found one Muslim who was recorded as having taken up French citizenship, and I went to the local archives to find out more about him. What I started to see was that he was just one among thousands of people from all over the world—from different parts of Europe, from the French colonies in the Caribbean and the Indian Ocean, including people of color—who were part of this transformation, who joined revolutionary committees, and fought in the armies to defend the Republic.
In your book, you write that French revolutionaries believed in a world in which Muslims could and would be French citizens. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in France. How do you think the French Revolution paved the way for this?
That was one of the key questions I asked in this book. France has had a large Muslim population, not just since the 1970s, but for more than 150 years, since the invasion and annexation of Algeria, then Tunisia, Morocco and West Africa. Many people from those colonies moved to France both before and after independence. But a lot of French commentators today treat Islam as if it is a new question, somehow alien to French history. I wanted to show just how far back these questions go – but even I was surprised when I found that the question of Muslim citizenship had been discussed openly and positively during the French Revolution, and that in fact Muslims were the first non-Christians to be granted citizenship at a time when prejudice and stigma were mostly focused on Jews. That decision tells us a lot about the revolution, and it opens up the longer span of French history as something that Muslims can feel belongs to them too. But it also shows that these struggles for inclusion of religious and ethnic minorities have a long history.
https://www.humanities.uci.edu/news/rewriting-french-revolution
Muslims didn’t invent the whole concept of beheading their captives either, that’s almost a Universal concept in many cultures. The French put their own unique spin on the concept by… (depending upon your point of view), extending the honour of being beheaded, to the plebs, as opposed to just maintaining it for the upper class. They also perfected the technique with the guillotine, because swords were just so passé…
One symbolic consequence of the French Revolution was the extension of the privilege of beheading to criminals of ordinary birth, by means of the guillotine.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/beheading
The Wiki entry actually puts an even better spin on the idea, Human Rights, apparently, in accordance with the values of the Enlightenment -
The guillotine was invented in order to make capital punishment less painful in accordance with new Enlightenment ideals about human rights. Prior to the guillotine, France had used manual beheading alongside a variety of methods of execution, many of which were more gruesome and required a high level of precision and skill to carry out successfully. After its adoption, the device remained France's standard method of judicial execution until the abolition of capital punishment in 1981. The last person to be executed in France was Hamida Djandoubi, guillotined on 10 September 1977.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine
Western values, eh? 😒
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