Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof · 16-09-2022 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625759#Comment_119625759

But even if it is, who cares? What do the IRFU owe to this competition at this juncture? Irish provinces have dominated it since its inception, winning it 13 out of the 21 years its existed. Regardless of what happens with this tour, the Irish sides will likely be at the business end of the competition once again this season.

Tbh, it's pretty easy to tell this comes from the fan of a team that was won the majority of those 13, and 4 of the last 5. And, indeed, is least impacted by this.

When teams 2nd thru 8th were competing to secure a knock-out spot and/or home advantage in the final rounds last season, Leinster were able to field a really young team (who were pretty good) in 2 games in SA, as they were clear at the top. Good for them, that's their prerogative.

But the other Provinces simply don't have the same depth. And we know the margin for error is likely to be small again this season.

We finally have a domestic competition that's worth winning, and are likely to have a season without Covid distuption for the first time since 2018/19. It'd be huge for Ulster or Munster to win it this season. And the IRFU have removed 35 players from the competition outside a Test window.

I don't think it's as massive a problem as some others on here, but I absolutely understand why Ulster and Connacht fans in particular are annoyed by this.

awec · 16-09-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626332#Comment_119626332

Pre-season friendles are to help get players fit and back into match practice after a few months break, syd. Do you think the provinces play pre-season for player development?!

Playing against Currie Cup teams will no more prepare a player for test rugby than playing AIL will prepare them for a Champions Cup game. I am sure you know this.

16-09-2022 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626336#Comment_119626336

Some of that is utterly irrelevant.

In the round, is this disruptive to the provinces, yes. How disruptive? That's a matter of debate on a team by team basis.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing on those points.

Within the last few pages of this thread there is the hyperbolic language calling this a "disaster", "absolutely stupid", "bizarre", "IRFU screwing over the provinces", "ridiculous", "incredibly stupid", "disrespectful" and, my personal favourite, "This is worse than anything the WRU have ever done. It's worse than the 4th test in the Autumn. This is, IMO, the clearest indication we have ever seen that the powers that be do not care whatsoever about the URC."

It's all completely over the top.

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626336#Comment_119626336

The decision was made based on the tour of NZ and the Māori games. Of course we wouldn’t have heard much about it.

If the IRFU wanted to make money, they would play a fourth game outside the Autumn window. Which would generate far more income than this tour ever could.

In general tours cost money for the touring side and generate money for the home sides. For Ireland to play another international in Autumn. It would probably mean between 5-7 million in revenue.

How much do you think Toyota are putting up. For a second and third string Irish team. Playing against Currie cup teams. This is a replacement for the provincial A teams touring down there. Andy Farrell or someone in the Irish management identified a need to do this. So grafted it on to an opportunity that already existed. An agreement between the IRFU and the SARFU.

The idea that this is somehow a money making exercise is bordering on conspiracy theory stuff.

aloooof · 16-09-2022 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626332#Comment_119626332

If this tour had happened in pre-season, I don't think there'd have been as much criticism.

16-09-2022 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626387#Comment_119626387

A major reason why Leinster have won so many of those is down to their unrivalled depth. Obviously there are a variety of factors around that, but I think it's fair to say that over the past 10 years Leinster (and Ulster) have been more willing to back young players earlier than Munster or Connacht. I know this evolved for Munster under JvG, but previous to that they were frequently rightly criticised for an apparent unwillingness to give younger players a shot.

It's not a healthy position to be in from the perspective of trying to make the playoffs anyway when teams are so heavily reliant on such a shallow squad of players.

I think the amount of additional rugby happening this year (between the Emerging Ireland series, the Munster-SA game, Ireland A v NZ A, and then a full November slate) is a big positive, because it will force all of the provinces to dig deeper into their playing pool reserves and blood more players.

awec · 16-09-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626464#Comment_119626464

Would have been a great idea in pre-season, or during a test window. Though preferably they'd have found more appropriate opposition. A South Africa A team would have been fantastic.

Maybe they could have doubled it up with the SA team coming to play Munster. Have them bring some extra players to give emerging Ireland a game as well.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626437#Comment_119626437

It’s a disaster for Connacht Rugby which is absolutely correct. Taking four guys away from first 23 is for four games in an 18 game league for a tour playing second tier opposition is ridiculous.

Connacht are outsiders in them as previously noted but unless they figure out a way to win at least 1, it’s not far off from being league over in October. They’re far less likely to do that missing these players.

16-09-2022 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626480#Comment_119626480

I think that's fair, and would have been the best outcome, but just didn't evolve that way.

That's not to say there aren't still benefits to be derived from it though.

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626480#Comment_119626480

What the hell purpose would it serve during a test window? When all the coaches would be tied up with the senior squad. Now that truly would be a waste of time.

16-09-2022 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626483#Comment_119626483

Connacht are just starting to experience what some of the other teams have had to live with for years; that is losing a clutch of international players during a league window (or having them mandated to sit out because of player management).

You can't have it every way.

Connacht need to build more depth, and until that happens they're going to struggle in this newly more competitive league. This may exacerbate that problem, but the underlying problem is still the same.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626476#Comment_119626476

This is garbage. Young players regularly get opportunity at Connacht, they have to even when not ready because of so little depth. Cian Prendergast joined the academy in summer 2020 after not getting into the Leinster academy, he made his debut after a couple of months there.

Leinster have far more high class young players but if a player in Connacht is good enough he will absolutely get an opportunity. The reality due to depth is most who aren’t good enough will get an opportunity.

aloooof · 16-09-2022 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626476#Comment_119626476

A major reason why Leinster have won so many of those is down to their unrivalled depth. Obviously there are a variety of factors around that, but I think it's fair to say that over the past 10 years Leinster (and Ulster) have been more willing to back young players earlier than Munster or Connacht. I know this evolved for Munster under JvG, but previous to that they were frequently rightly criticised for an apparent unwillingness to give younger players a shot.

Off topic, and not particularly a topic that's worth going over again, but Leinster were able to blood young players because they had quality young players. Munster didn't. There's a reasonable argument that had Munster blooded more young players in the middle of the last decade, they'd have fared worse overall.

I don't think it's a coincidence that, when a cohort of quality young players came about under JvG, they started getting more gametime.

In any case, I don't really see the relevance to this tour right now. Look at the team Munster named for 2moro. They are blooding more young players.

awec · 16-09-2022 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626530#Comment_119626530

They managed mid-week games fine in New Zealand. I'm sure they'd figure it out in the interests of teaching The System®.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626531#Comment_119626531

That’s fine when players are going up a level and playing international rugby. It’s not acceptable or good for the players when they are playing down a level against second tier sides.

The league has also been making a deliberate effort to play less in international windows, the IRFU are undermining that.

molloyjh · 16-09-2022 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626108#Comment_119626108

A week long camp would have done the same as a few weeks in camp with game time in the system?

Look, I get that the opposition is crap. But that’s not really the point of this. Nobody is claiming that these games will gets guys up to Test level. The amount of straw men that have shown up on this topic is honestly impressive in a way. But so much of that misses the actual point.

And the point is to get players in to see how they adapt to what the Irish coaches want of them. How many hit the ground running? How many show promise? How many take charge and show leadership? How many look like they are a million miles from adapting to the style Ireland want to play in.

A few weeks with these guys will tell the coaches a lot about them as players and as team mates. You’ll never get that in a week.

Those who can’t see the benefits of this are being as myopic as those who can’t see the drawbacks. If you think it’s worthless then you simply aren’t making any effort to understand a different viewpoint to your own. It’s that simple.

I get some of the complaints. I get some of these guys would be available to the provinces and playing for them if not for the tour. But to allow the issues to blind you to the benefits of this makes discussion on the topic a pain in the backside for some and unbearable for others. That applies to anyone who can’t see the drawbacks too btw, there’s just a lot fewer of those.

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626552#Comment_119626552

As a touring squad training together in the same training base. Not in two completely different continents. 🤷🏻‍♂️

16-09-2022 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626534#Comment_119626534

They don't get as much opportunity as a regular revolving door of average-to-poor imports have gotten in the last few years; Naulia Dawai, Danie Poolman, Marnitz Boshoff, Nepia Fox-Matamua, Stacey Illi, Joe Maksymiw, Kyle Godwin, David Horwitz, Ben O'Donnell and Abraham Papali'i as a few examples in just the last few seasons.

awec · 16-09-2022 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626585#Comment_119626585

Yes, but as we've been repeatedly told here, the standard of opposition they play against doesn't matter at all, so I am sure they could have found an opponent without having to travel anywhere.

They could have played against a bunch of lads from the various A teams who weren't in the squad. They could have played against an SA select side that's already coming here to play Munster, just ask them to bring some extra players.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 2:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626607#Comment_119626607

Some of those players weren’t in the last few seasons. Kyle Godwin was an excellent player for Connacht by the way. Fox Matamua was a bargain basement player who did very well before doing his cruciate (or some serious injury anyway.) Danie Poolman was a fine player for a lot of years too. Connacht have a far more limited budget and have to bring in cheaper imports, naturally not all work.

Your statement was simply and clearly wrong. Has any young player ever left Connacht after not getting an opportunity and excelled elsewhere?

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626611#Comment_119626611

Of course they could have. They could have arranged for three teams to travel here and play games midweek. Just so the provinces could have access to their full squads for a couple of URC games.

While having the coaching team preparing two completely separate squads. That’s not likely to have any negative impact on the senior team at all. Seriously?

molloyjh · 16-09-2022 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626611#Comment_119626611

They would have struggled to find a block of time like that. And the block part is important.

awec · 16-09-2022 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626650#Comment_119626650

Why would it have a negative impact on the senior team? They literally managed this just fine only a few months ago.

ClanofLams · 16-09-2022 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626580#Comment_119626580

If the opposition doesn’t matter it definitely could have been done in Ireland. I amended that “same” to “similar” I think in response to you maybe it was someone else.

I am not saying there are no benefits but the drawbacks are far more substantial. It’s a kick in the teeth to some provincial supporters at least and it undermines the league, a league which finally has some potential.

sydthebeat · 16-09-2022 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626421#Comment_119626421

pre season games get new players used to systems and calls, ireland A is full of new players.

These games will tell the coaches which players can (A) get up to speed quickly and (B) add value to their systems and moves.

The fact youve already referred to its as a 'junket' is enough to show what these games mean to you.

Youre wrong though, these games are not valueless and the tour is not a jolly. There will be quite a turn over of test players after RWC 2023 (possibly 10 from the NZ tours squad) and this tour is a great opportunity to for these 2nd / 3rd string players to get their names involved

16-09-2022 2:46pm

My reading of things is that absolutely everything this year (potentially with the exception of the six nations) is going to be sacrificed at the alter of the World Cup with a 'not fcuking around' mentality being applied to decision making.

If that means sacrificing a few URC games, if that means keeping the team together rather than playing fixtures in the provinces, if that means limiting playing minutes for parts of the squad - whatever, it's what needs to happen.

And I'm fine with it. It's a world cup year. We are legitimately one of the best teams in the World - if they have a plan as to how they are going to go and win the thing, and that involves a change in approach that creates a need for sacrifices elsewhere then fine, do it.

I'm done watching Ireland sh1t the bed at world cups, if Farrell wants to shake things up on the run in I'm all for it. Most of those whinging now will be whinging in a years time if Ireland don't deliver, but if we go to France and perform the absence of a few players for the first few rounds of the URC will be the last thing people are talking about.

stephen_n · 16-09-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626663#Comment_119626663

That is a completely different scenario. That was an expanded squad training together and in some cases crossing over.

This situation is nothing like that and I’m sure you know that. Or maybe your so entrenched in your negative opinion about this. That you somehow can’t see that.

16-09-2022 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626552#Comment_119626552

Well, ironically, that is literally what Simon Easterby in his own words puts forward as the reason for this tour:

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2022/09/15/tour-experience-should-help-players-to-kick-on-easterby/

His direct language: "“Rob was due to come to New Zealand with us and didn’t because of injury. He is certainly one that has been around the environment for a while, but he’s only got a couple of caps,” said Easterby.

“I guess him and a few others in there, we feel like there’s still a need for us to build time and exposure in what we’re trying to do.

“We’re really lucky at the moment that all the players are getting a high level of coaching and expertise in the provinces, but we do things slightly differently as the provinces will do.

“So, we need to make sure that we keep them aligned to what we’re doing in the national set-up. It’s not a million miles apart from each other, but there’s always going to be little nuances and differences that we have, that each province will do slightly differently.”

"

molloyjh · 16-09-2022 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626668#Comment_119626668

I think you’re overstating the impacts here. We know the internationals are going to be made available so arguably the impacts are very minimal from that perspective.

I also have to laugh when people claim another solution could have been found and then offer no alternative. It’s incredibly easy to say that it could have been done in Ireland or declare certainty over how options in Ireland could have been found. It’s another thing to actually come up with one. A realistic one that can work. And even if another solution were available, you’re still talking about these guys not being available to the province. So the only thing it really changes is the location. Which I can’t see being the sticking point for people here.

aloooof · 16-09-2022 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626702#Comment_119626702

It's not ironic at all and I'd wager is exactly what awec means; that we potentially could have built the time into them in mid-weeks games during the AI's, and also not have it disadvantage any of the Provinces. Best of both worlds.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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