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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So you think we can just drop fossil fuels in the morning and just switch to renewables.

    Have you learned nothing the past year. Renewables are undependable

    Why else do you think Europe is now burning anything they can get their hands on, or why do you think Ryan is now scrambling to build more gas fired plants ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Your LOL proves you don't have a clue what you're talking about on this topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,667 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    An interesting observation is that it's reckoned in as little as 300 million years all plant life and trees will be long gone as a result of a lack of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

    Anything humans do is doomed one way or another.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,211 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Yeah but for a brief moment in history we'll have gouged average people of their hard earned cash for useless green initiatives.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Nobody is proposing windmills.

    And your hand waving of biblical flooding as if it's no big deal if enough money is spent on adaptation is ridiculous. The Adaption they will end up having to do, is relocating. but when I talk about climate refugees' you also say that is ridiculous

    Germany, one of the richest most highly developed countries in the world was caught unprepared for flooding in 2020. If the rain is heavy enough it overwhelms any defenses, and it is mu h more expensive to build defenses for the most extreme rainfall, which is becoming more likely due to climate change



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Isn't ribbing another word for trolling?

    And surely you must also be trolling when you said the earth is in thermodynic equilibrium.

    (Despite your weasily qualifier about negligible ocean warming)



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    What part of the word transition implies immediately drop all fossil fuels?

    Seriously. You just do not get it at all do you. Or else you're trolling like ps200306 is.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You just do not get it at all do you. Or else you're trolling like ps200306 is.

    Both



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The RESS auctions price was high because offshore wind in Ireland is at the base of that technology curve. We have zero infrastructure to support that yet. As we build up that industry in Ireland the costs and price will come down.

    You also need to factor in inflation. If copper goes up 10% and general inflation is 10% then the real cost is the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I have no problem getting your "it". Your problem is that like Ryan you have no interest in a transition from from fossil fuels to achieve this "it"

    You, like him, have this timeline in your head where there will be no need for fossil fuels, and that timeline has nothing to do with transition. You and the Green Party`s "it" is to prevent any use of fossil fuels by coercion to ensure there is no other alternative other than renewable, and we see where that has got us so far.

    Conventional plants shut or downgraded, exploration banned and an attempt to ban any form of LNG, based on nothing but a theory that renewables would make up the shortfall which they have clearly shown they are not doing. That insanity now has us building more gas plants to fill the shortfall from renewables, using an unsecure supply of gas, no storage, no LNG and no possibility of even discovering if we have untapped reserves with Ryan doing his hand-sitting act. The green answer. ? More turbines without a single clue as to what capacity would be needed or what it would cost. Again based on nothing other than if we build enough of them we might get it right.

    Transition is by definition the process of changing from one state or condition to another. That is not the "it" greens are looking for, and if anyone is trolling pretending it is it is you.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Was the latest RESS strike price was for off-shore ?

    Far as I recall it was only for on-shore and solar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    Well, there was a serious point. You are confused if you think a warming Earth loses less heat to space, and that's what causes upper atmosphere cooling. Of course it's in thermodynamic equilibrium -- how could it not be? And yes, I put in the qualifier because a nitpicker could point out that while the oceans are transitioning to a new equilibrium temperature the energy budget is out of balance by an absolutely tiny amount.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    They have been building offshore wind off Scotland for some time now. They have the onshore and martime equipment infrastructure down pat and have had so for some time now. When I have costed offshore wind I have used one of the most recently completed offshore wind farms - finished only last year - when comparing with the cost of nuclear. By your supposed logic, this should have been a cheaper than previous projects example as it would have benefited from this mature infrastructure if that actually mattered a lot.

    So even if there will be future cost savings, the all up cost will still be double that of nuclear (in the short term - it gets worse with time), so by your supposed logic, the first Irish ones are going to be even more costly than that, making the economics even more mind bogglingly stupid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    I am seriously worried about your level of confusion. The RESS 2 auction was ONSHORE wind. We haven't had the first offshore auction round yet (which will be called ORESS). ONSHORE wind was coming in 30% higher than just two years ago, and at the same price as UK nuclear! Please absorb that fact when you are reading your report about renewables saving us trillions as prices drop. Prices are going UP and by way more than the general rate of inflation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    An interesting tid bit Dr Michael Moore mentioned in a video was that in the last interglacial, if memory serves, CO2 levels got so low that there was a mass global extinction of plant life at higher altitudes because the CO2 concentrations were too low for them to survive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Apologies, I got that wrong, the ORESS auction hasn't been held yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The earth is in an imbalance. Because humans have altered the chemistry of the atmosphere, there is a radiative forcing of about 1.6 watts per square metre caused mostly by human emissions of GHGs

    1.6 w/m2 doesn't seem very much, but cumulatively, it adds up to the equivalent energy of 5 Hiroshima sized nuclear bombs being added to the planet every second, 24 hours a day.

    Most of that energy goes into the oceans, where it is causing things like oceanic heat waves that kill marine wildlife, bleaching corals, melting Ice shelves and ice sheets and also expanding the oceans leading to sea level rises, fuelling storms and increasing the intensity of rainfall

    The rest of the energy is going into heating up the atmosphere leading to the other effects we can see, such as changes in rainfall patterns, extreme heatwaves, droughts followed by floods etc

    If you think the earth is in thermodynamic equilibrium than you are completely misinformed

    And the thermodynamic inbalance is literally causing less heat to radiate out to the mesosphere. roughly same amount of heat is coming in from the sun which is relatively stable , less heat is escaping due to the changes we have made to our planet that are causing this radiative forcing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    This is something you Greenies don't get. You talking about the transition as if it'll be like stepping off the deck of a sinking ship onto a waiting lifeboat. We'll just use fossils until we no longer need them -- you have used that exact wording yourself -- as if the fossil fuel industry will just keep providing backup for unreliables from an inexhaustible reservoir according to some Green timetable.

    It's not like that. Fossil fuel supplies decline over time and new sources have to be found. To keep up with existing (and growing) demand requires a constant stream of new investment in both new exploration and enhanced recovery techniques from existing reservoirs. Green policies intentionally discourage that investment. It's a vicious circle. Greens want to starve the fossil fuel industry of funds because higher prices paint renewables in a good light (see your own crowing about wind being nine times cheaper than gas on one day in 2022). Big Oil companies worry about investing in stranded assets and so are happy to take high prices for existing resources as it maintains their profitability. Big Wind loves it too, as they also profit from higher prices. The public are the big loser as they pay the cost for this battle of the energy suppliers.

    Personally I don't care where we get our energy from as long as it is cheap and abundant. Energy is the lifeblood of all human economy, from the most basic necessities of food and shelter to what we do with leisure time. It scares me how oblivious the general public is to the economics of energy supply, although obviously they notice it when -- as now -- they have to deal with steeply rising end user costs. I don't believe renewables can provide an adequate replacement at acceptable cost. They are too distributed, intermittent, and resource intensive. I keep an open mind on that, but I want to see much more R&D investment in other technologies (nuclear fission and fusion among others). I'd also like to see an overhaul of regulatory structures around fission -- the Green policies that are starving the fossil fuel industry did the same for nuclear decades ago. Nuclear could be a fraction of its current cost if it was more standardised and less strangled by regulation.

    I'm not conspiracy-minded enough to believe that Greens in general want to kill the economy (though there's definitely a subset that do). But I think they are simpleminded enough to do it unwittingly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The transition to renewables should involve building the absolute minimum new fossil fuel infrastructure that we can get away with.

    The costs of failing to address climate change are much higher than the cost of changing our energy infrastructure



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    What's the Absolute minimum needed ? Seen as we have no idea how many windmills need to be built ? Currently looking at what 9 power stations needed immediately.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The absolute minimum depends on how quickly we build our renewable infrastructure.

    If we had begun building offshore wind when Scotland did, we wouldn't need those new gas turbines. If we introduce regulations that require heavy energy users, like industry and data centers to have their own on site storage to reduce their impact on peak demand, we would need fewer gas turbines. If the regulator forces the energy companies to activate their feed in tariffs and introduce proper time of use tariffs that actually reward consumers for using power at low demand then we'll need less gas. If the government took ownership over installation of solar and upgrading to electric heating instead of deferring to the market with grants and incentives that lead to abuse and feet dragging...

    If this was treated with the urgency it demands we could do an awful lot to cut our reliance on fossil fuels.

    The worst thing is, all of the changes needed make financial sense in the medium term. They save money and improve air quality and make people's homes more economical and warmer places to live.

    The pace of action is glacial in this country. We could be doing a lot more.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    What's the backup to the offshore having no wind then onshore with no wind ? we will still need the power stations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    As pointed out by others, the recent RESS auction strike price was not cheap for on-shore being the same as the U.K. recent strike price for nuclear. Expecting a future strike price for off-shore for less does not sound logical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    If the wind is insufficient, and the solar is insufficient and the pumped hydro runs out, and the interconnectors are insufficient, and battery storage is depleted and peak shaving is not an option, then the Gas turbines may be needed

    These new gas power stations are explicitly for backup. They are offline untill they're needed and can be turned on quickly.

    As we advance our transition from fossil fuels, these turbines will be needed less and less often.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I honestly don't care. If we need to pay a bit more for energy, that's a political problem. It can be fixed later on if we need to.

    Delaying the transition will cost us more in the long run. The marginal cost of renewable power is very cheap. I would prefer if the government built the infrastructure and kept them in public ownership, but they chose to auction them off. That's fine, as long as we're moving in the right direction



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,978 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    We bale and export a majority of our waste in Ireland, to countries in Europe who are smart enough to use it as an fuel to generate energy, and they do it more cleanly than the gases coming off a landfill in Ireland.

    We should be keeping all our waste, and using it ourselves. It would bring down the costs of waste removal also, if the waste becomes a saleable product



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭jj880


    Only one thing for it - higher carbon tax for us!



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    When I read this I thought ' that can't be right' but it seems we only have 3 municipal landfills in Ireland taking 500k tonnes of household waste a year. The rest is either incinerated in our 2 waste to energy incinerators or used to fire kilns for concrete production, or exported where most of it is incinerated.

    It's not exactly ideal to be burning waste but it probably is better to do it locally than waste even more resources to ship it abroad to be burnt

    Obviously reducing packaging and recycling more would be the preferred way forward but those capitalists gotta make their money selling water in single use bottles etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    When it comes to anything financial you are either clueless or such a fanatic you honestly do not give a damn for anything or anybody other than your green wet dream.

    People are not being asked to "pay a bit more for energy". They are being asked to pay eye-watering sums for energy while greens are still determined to keep upping carbon taxes, pushing through more rules and regulation to force them into paying even greater sums for heat pumps, retrofitting and EVs. Money the vast number of people simply do not have.

    You, nor any green, has not even a clue as to how much their "solution" of piling on more wind turbines will cost. Or even if it would work.The idea that the State could finance what greens favour, only adds to that greens are a bunch of financially clueless ideological fanatics.

    If this marginal cost of renewables is so cheap then it`s time we saw it in action, but if the latest RESS strike prices are any indication then cheap it is not.

    The State does not magically generate finance. It is provided by the citizens via taxes. The idea that the State could finance the blank cheque that greens are looking for just further shows that they are a bunch of financially clueless dangerous ideological fanatics. It also makes their opposition to the State building an LNG terminal due to the cost being so hypocrtically laughable.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The eye wateringly high energy prices are because of Putin and Gas prices. Moving to renewables takes them out of the equation. And it's likely that very soon the EU will end it's marginal pricing policy and energy prices will fall for consumers because of renewables.



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