Was the government right to put no limit on the amount of Ukrainian refugees in Ireland? Read OP

iamwhoiam · 18-09-2022 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633365#Comment_119633365

Nor does this thread represent the rest of the country either . There are multiple opinions and for multiple reasons .

TomTomTim · 18-09-2022 11:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633337#Comment_119633337

This post really typifies what people speak of when they question the motivation of stuff like this. You might as well be patting yourself on the back, as the post seems to be more driven by how people like yourself are perceived than anything else. It reminds me of: "don't do Christian acts to appease others, do them because you truly believe in them". Much like we just saw in America with the illegal immigrants stunt, many of the "believers" weren't true believers when reality landed on their doorstep.

The biggest supporters of said policies seem to always be the furthest away from the reality of them, untouched by the true consequences, yet always ready to preach to the plebs who have to deal with the worst of it. Compassion isn't a tap that can be turned on and off, you either have it or you don't, and the supposed compassion on display seems to always overlook the out of fashion groups, being the native Irish in this instance.

TaurenDruid · 18-09-2022 12:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633505#Comment_119633505

The question you've copied and pasted is here: https://www.redcross.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/FAQs-updated-on-04.05.2022-1.pdf

The answer, which you omitted, is: A: To be eligible for housing support from the State or the Irish Red Cross all refugees need to be registered with International Protection Accommodation Services (IPAS). Individuals can register with IPAS by contacting the helpdesk: ukrainetempaccom@equality.gov.ie.

In other words, the Red Cross is not telling people how they can access housing supports if they're not entitled to them, they're sending them on to the appropriate government agency, who will presumably be telling them how to regularise their position if they had been entitled to arrive under the TPD but hadn't, for whatever reason; or telling them that no, as they didn't arrive under the TPD, they have no access to housing supports.

CeCe12 · 18-09-2022 12:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633538#Comment_119633538

Yes, but under the Temporary Protection Directive aren't these supports specifically for those who were normally resident in Ukraine prior to 24th Feb 2022. How can they then be regarded as needing to register with IPAS?

18-09-2022 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633505#Comment_119633505

Here is the link:

https://www.redcross.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/FAQs-updated-on-04.05.2022.pdf

Can they really just email and register, because thats how easy it sounds?!

TaurenDruid · 18-09-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633557#Comment_119633557

My understanding is yes, they're only for those who were normally resident in Ukraine prior to 24/2. I would imagine this is a case of the Red Cross going "Well, it's not our job to tell them." That question, btw, appears in a section intended for Irish hosts. The whole doc looks like it was prepared in haste, and hasn't been updated since.

18-09-2022 12:55pm

This is a long post, but if you copy and paste the following it gives updated information from the Government.

https://assets.gov.ie/226764/94b9e234-fca0-425a-87b9-fc8718f75233.pdf

EN

Short-term Accommodation: Refusals Protocol for Beneficiaries of Temporary Protection from Ukraine

What is Temporary Protection and how does it relate to my accommodation application?

The European Council has set minimum standards for giving temporary protection in the event of a mass movement of displaced persons under Council Directive 2001/55/EC. In Ireland, the Directive is applied by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (DCEDIY) and it provides access to initial short-term accommodation.

When can I apply?

You may request initial short-term accommodation from the Department on arrival into Ireland, following a successful application for temporary protection to the Department of Justice.

Am I eligible for short-term accommodation under Temporary Protection?

The Department will provide accommodation to all beneficiaries of temporary protection (BOTPs) who indicate that they require such accommodation on arrival into Ireland, or in circumstances where privately arranged accommodation is not suitable.

Who cannot apply for short-term accommodation under Temporary Protection?

 Anyone who is considered ineligible for temporary protection by the Department of Justice.

 Anyone who is eligible for temporary protection but chooses not to apply for this status e.g. chooses

to make an application under the International Protection Act 2015.

 People who have refused accommodation offered by the Department.

What if there is no facility to apply for Temporary Protection at my arrival location?

If your arrival destination in Ireland does not have facilities for processing such applications, the Department will provide accommodation where possible for up to 2 nights after you arrive. You should apply for temporary protection as soon as possible at a temporary protection application centre. You must be granted temporary protection to continue availing of short-term accommodation on the same terms as other BOTPs.

EN

Where are the Temporary Protection application centres?

The Department of Justice receive and evaluate temporary protection applications at various locations. Full details on these locations can be found in the Information for people arriving from Ukraine section on the gov.ie/Ukraine webpage.

I have a medical condition. Should I tell someone?

If you have a medical condition which you feel might impact on a decision on accommodation which is suitable you should advise an official. The official may then direct you to a Health Service Executive (HSE) staff member for an assessment. Accommodation arrangements for medical conditions must be recommended by the HSE. When DCEDIY receives a recommendation from the HSE following an assessment it will facilitate you in so far as possible.

I am unhappy with my accommodation. What can I do?

The Department offers suitable accommodation which is inspected as required. It is not always possible to provide accommodation that will meet your full expectations or requirements as to location.

The Department is focussed on providing suitable accommodation to everyone that needs it and as a result, we are not in a position to put people in alternative accommodation unless it is due to the contract with the provider ending or on disability or medical grounds. We will not look for alternative accommodation for you on the following grounds:

 Proximity to specific employment opportunities

 Proximity to specific schools or programmes of study in further or higher education institutions

 Proximity to friends, acquaintances or a particular community

 Any other personal preference

If you are unhappy with your accommodation and we are not in a position to move you, you can, of course, look for your own accommodation privately at your expense.

What happens if I refuse the accommodation arranged for me?

Due to the acute shortage of accommodation available, if you refuse an offer of accommodation you will not receive further offers from the Department . We cannot provide alternative accommodation to people for reasons of employment, school, family reunification or other non-medical reasons. Do not attend Citywest Transit Hub as you will not be permitted access.

I have been asked to move from one location to another. What now?

You may be requested to move to another accommodation provider by the Department. This occurs from time to time when the Department’s contract with the accommodation provider ends or where accommodation provided is in an emergency rest centre. The Department will organise the new accommodation and transport for you

You can enquire with the provider whether you can remain on a personal and private basis. If you do this, the Department will bear no further responsibility for any costs associated with your accommodation.

EN

Who can I contact for further information?

Please contact the Ukraine Temporary Accommodation Team at ukrainetempaccom@equality.gov.ie and someone will assist you.

What about pledged accommodation?

The Department is working with partners including the Irish Red Cross, Peter McVerry Trust, International Organisation for Migration (IOM) and Local Authorities to match BOTPs to pledged private accommodation in people’s homes. This refusal policy also applies to pledged accommodation. The Department is not a party to the pledge but works with partners to facilitate the process. Where homes are vacant they are inspected and where moves to shared homes involve children, vetting of adults living in the home take place. Private pledges also take place outside the Department process.

CeCe12 · 18-09-2022 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633632#Comment_119633632

From my point view, I presume they were already here. If working they surely would be entitled to some housing subsidies (not sure as not EU members)if they met the income threshold but not the whole hotel package. I am not stating they have received the hotel package just found the information odd.

18-09-2022 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632932#Comment_119632932

Ah, but I didn't say no house went for 120k - I said that one won't - unless of course, it's one of many Mica houses, or has structural or access issues!

I viewed a house last week priced at 90k - it had so many structural issues, I wouldn't touch it with a pole..

It will almost undoubtedly end up another air B&B, rented in the summer, when the glaring cracks between the original structure and an extension will be less significant.

For those looking to live, and build a business in the area, that type of property is either useless, or would cost more in repairs than the property would be worth..

Neither did I say Ukrainians were buying houses - I said properties were being bought, by property developers, with a view to housing Ukrainians.

Precisely what the difference is in housing a load of Ukrainians in a cheaply renovated building, which is little more than a hostel, and renovating the same building to a decent standard with a view to having a nice hotel, restaurant and conference room in the area is anyone's guess...

Apparently, providing a local amenity, which would benefit the community year round, and bring in much needed jobs, and income for other businesses in the area is less desirable than ramming as many people into the area, with no planning for extra amenities provided.

18-09-2022 12:58pm

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/ukrainian_refugees_in_ireland/accommodation_recognition_payment.html

^ Wouldnt this incentivise landlords to prefer Ukrainians for accommodation at a time of a crisis

Anyone who is benefiting financially from the refugee situation should be upfront about it. You views will be influenced by it.

18-09-2022 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633662#Comment_119633662

Would you rent an €800+ property for €400 a month?

Unrainian refugees availing of temporary protection are not eligible for HAP.

18-09-2022 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633368#Comment_119633368

No one has directly blamed Ukrainians for the housing crises. It is, without question a result of government policy.

However, we are in the middle of a housing crises, one that successive governments are either unable or unwilling to solve.

Uncapped numbers of any Nationality, are exascerbating that crises - and providing a nice income for those in a position to profit from it, to the detriment of the Irish people.

There are two unoccupied houses in my own townland. They were built during the Celtic tiger. Their owners are abroad, working to pay off the mortgage, and come on holidays at Christmas and in the summer.

166,000 vacant houses is a nice figure - how many are derelict, unfinished Celtic tiger projects, have access or disputed ownership figures, or are family homes, whose owners have emigrated to pay the mortgage? Because that's the true figure for viable vacant homes that the statistics gloss over nicely...

TaurenDruid · 18-09-2022 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633628#Comment_119633628

No, no they can't.

TaurenDruid · 18-09-2022 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633654#Comment_119633654

I presume if someone can't avail of the directive, they're not allowed to work without having an appropriate visa, as they're not EU citizens.

My mistake on the Red Cross document from earlier - I see it was actually updated on 4th May, so two months in to the crisis.

TaurenDruid · 18-09-2022 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633715#Comment_119633715

Derelict homes, especially in urban centres, are a travesty, and should attract an ever-rising vacant property tax.

I don't know how many of those 166,000 are derelict, are unfinished Celtic Tiger projects (there's been plenty of cheap finance available for the last decade!), have access problems (none, probably, as they had planning permission to be built), have disputed ownership, or are family homes with emigrant owners (begging the question why they haven't been rented out to help even more with the mortgage).

Even if the figure was 50% - that's still 83,000 vacant properties. And we know they're not all in dereliction, need of repair, beset with legal problems, etc.: https://twitter.com/SineadRyan/status/1570777148650328064

No one has directly blamed Ukrainians for the housing crises. It is, without question a result of government policy. However, we are in the middle of a housing crises, one that successive governments are either unable or unwilling to solve.

Oh, some are blaming the Ukrainians. But yes, it is definitely a result of government policy.

Uncapped numbers of any Nationality, are exascerbating that crises - and providing a nice income for those in a position to profit from it, to the detriment of the Irish people.

We don't have uncapped numbers of any nationality. We have a Temporary Protection Directive, which has a finite end.

18-09-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634078#Comment_119634078

That "finite end" is currently affecting the number of properties available for rent. Yes or no?

I do believe we were discussing unoccupied homes, as opposed to derelict homes, though, were we not?

If people who have emigrated to pay the mortgage on a family home choose to use it as a holiday home (often for multiple family members), and don't want the hassle/risk/ taxation issues of becoming landlords, why is that any of your concern?

Beasty · 18-09-2022 4:50pm

This thread is to do with Government Policy surrounding Ukrainian refugees in Ireland. It is not for personal anecdotes of comments about the refugees themselves. That's exactly the sort of thing that resulted in the closure of the Megathread

Any questions PM me - do not respond to this post in thread

18-09-2022 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633628#Comment_119633628

To register with IPAS and get their letter of protection, they have to present in person with their ID, be photographed etc.

CeCe12 · 18-09-2022 5:47pm

https://www.businesspost.ie/news/expert-groups-warn-taoiseach-states-ukraine-refugee-plan-contradicts-vow-to-scrap-direct-provision/

interesting article from last week commenting on the Government's response to housing the refugees.

TaurenDruid · 18-09-2022 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634186#Comment_119634186

I do believe we were discussing unoccupied homes, as opposed to derelict homes, though, were we not?

Yes, we were. You brought up derelict homes, though, so I responded.

If people who have emigrated to pay the mortgage... why is that any of your concern?

Again, you brought that up, so I responded.

That "finite end" is currently affecting the number of properties available for rent. Yes or no?

Probably - almost certainly, I'd say. I've no idea, though, of the actual numbers of homes/apartments now effectively 'off the market' due to them being rented to Ukrainians, or to the government who are using them to temporarily house Ukrainian refugees, though. If you're looking for someone to blame, blame Russia, who precipitated this crisis. We quite rightly opened our door to Ukrainian refugees. That the government is mismanaging it isn't really a surprise to anyone who has being paying attention to how they (both parties) have performed over the last 60 years or so.

live4tkd · 19-09-2022 1:25pm

Yes there should be a cap at least in the short term. The government policy on this (not unlike their other policies) is at best flawed.

I get the impression from their side its more of an appeasement to the EU with a view to promotions within the EU regardless of what happens in Ireland. I say this as I cannot fathom as to why else it is happening in its current form.

As it’s been said here and other threads many times we have:

Housing/accommodation crisis speaks for itself.
Energy Crisis yet again thanks to flawed/blinkered government policy yet we are adding numbers increasing energy demand! Yet they have plans for 4 hour blackouts!
As was highlighted in yesterday’s Sunday Independent we have a `Twindemic` based on a HSE report (flu/covid in winter). To think there were a few on boards who defended governments policies on covid to the hilt. Yet we take in more people (regardless of where they are from) adding to the already existing backlogs on services, regardless of vaccination status especially what we were subjected to by media onslaught last year with the pandemic of the unvaccinated tripe and all that went with that. Now the tune is changed dramatically.

I don`t agree with some posters suggestions sending money to other countries so the refugees can be accommodated, we either have the money to deal with the issue here or we don`t. If we have that much money to be sending abroad to accommodate refugees abroad what are we doing here having an accommodation crisis here in the first place!

The media have been absolutely dreadful here, not for the first time, not challenging government policy with their one sided continual narrative as regards this, the energy and covid crisis as we have seen. No proper debate or questioning on any of this or other policies.

If we see one blackout this winter related to the current crises this government should be out on their ear!

There should not be any preferential treatment of asylum seekers as regards accommodation / benefits etc. especially when we have so much of our own that have the same issues.

By all means asylum seekers, refugees should be welcome but not in an unlimited basis when there are not enough resources to even manage the current population.

TaurenDruid · 19-09-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119637354#Comment_119637354

While I agree with you that our FFG series of governments are shite, you can't complain about the government's failure to plan, on the one hand, and then complain when they do make contingency/emergency plans, on the other!

The fault for the energy crisis lies firmly at the door of Putin and Russia.

Likewise, either you accept the reality of covid/flu, the need for vaccinations, etc. Or you don't, in which case, what's the problem with unvaccinated people? (FWIW, personally, I believe there's absolutely a need for vaccinations, if only to help prevent long covid and to cut down on the seriousness of symptoms, and I really hope there's a really strong takeup of vaccines/boosters among both Irish and refugees).

Asylum seekers don't get any preferential treatment as regards accommodation/benefits. Ukrainian refugees do get benefits, under the temporary directive. Asylum seekers and TPD refugees are two different things.

live4tkd · 19-09-2022 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119637437#Comment_119637437

I can absolutely can argue and complain if I like because their plans or contingency plans are an utter joke.

Contingency planning that exists of blackouts? You call this a plan despite not allowing gas storage facilities, no cap on intake of refugees or asylum seekers? Why oh why do we have a climate activist as an Energy minister?? Yes indeed there is a climate crisis but why must policy here castrate the Irish Citizen, policy in this regard is based on tax or punitive measures instead of giving people options that they can readily jump to. I despise the green agenda in this country purely because of their pie in the sky notions, punitive measures and their detachment from reality.

I don`t have a problem with vaccination as I have said repeatedly on other threads, I have a problem with government policy and the way people were treated by media and government who chose not to yet allowed an influx into the country from areas with a fairly low vaccine uptake yet people here were vilified for not having taken a booster! It was outrageous and disgusting. Again piss poor media not asking these questions! Zero proper planning for this winter which the recent HSE report is saying per yesterdays Sunday Independent article!

As regards asylum seekers / refugees surely when asylum seekers ended up going on the streets that would have set off alarm bells no?? I want people including our own citizens to be safe and looked after here but not the way it is happening now!

I do not want this to go into a blame game as it is Government policy here is at fault not those seeking refuge!

ThoseSpikesAreSore · 19-09-2022 6:34pm

As I am reading through all of these posts it looks to me like everybody is agreeing except one or two that all of the problems regarding housing are the government's fault but I know there are much more problems then that and it is just one part of it.

This article is from last year before they started to accept in thousands of more people with housing needs

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fine-gael-and-fianna-fail-caused-the-housing-crisis-they-cannot-fix-it-1.4665466

Some people here will remember when Leo also said that the levels of homeless people here were low a few years ago but nobody else thought it so I don't know what he was thinking

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30813706.html

But if they thought there was no crisis then but knew that there was at least a problem why didn't they fix them then? I know it sounds cheesy or corny, but it works for this situation like "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail" and i believe that is what has happened here. It is a bit scary that it took fifty thousand of refugees coming into the country for us to see how bad things are.

I don't want to keep picking out Leo but it is himself that is doing the talking that is helping to make my points. He said last month that

“I think we need to have another go at housing really, and seeing what we can do. Because while our plans are working, they’re not working fast enough and that’s very obvious to me,”

https://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadkar-housing-reaction-5844194-Aug2022/

You have had your run boi and you made a mess of it over the last 12 years nothing has been done and it has got worse. Nobody thought it could get worse than it was then. I am not sure any of them are living in the real world with the rest of us, Do they know how hard and how much it is to get a house now like? We need thousands of houses to look after the people that will claim asylum here as well as our own people, I don't know how many but I think it would take the guts of ten years to build all of those and Simon Coveney and Leo Varadkar want another million or two or more in the population of the country by then to work for cheap. We will also have a whole new generation of people looking to buy houses by then so we will always be on the back foot.

I think anyone that believes that they should get another go at it has rocks in their head, completely bonkers like. The problems should have been fixed long before they all became crisises and they haven't fixed any of them and are making them worse accepting thousands more like what is going on. Will the million come in one go or over time so we will see half a million added in four or five years and only half the houses needed to fix the current problem will be built. What about our hospitals and care homes and what about our roads and train services aren't good enough and every section we look at there seems to be somebody resigning because of something corrupt I can't take much more of them. I don't think Ireland can take much more Ukrainians in, we need to stop enticing them to come here at least until we can build a big enough amount of the houses that are needed to fix the next generation of problems. Like why build 10 houses today if there are 25 more people needing homes arriving next week and never going to catch up. It is absolutely mad. We should pause them coming in our build proper houses and double the amount instead of building the temporary houses more expensive then a real house.

Real Donald Trump · 20-09-2022 5:19pm

Don't think there is any point to this thread anymore, any opposing view is not welcome anymore, just all feel good stories only welcome. not good. Not a democracy we are living in if that's the case.

Igotadose · 20-09-2022 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119642774#Comment_119642774

As far as I can tell, Boards, like any other online forum or source, is a benevolent dictatorship. If you think boards is where you're living, well, have a word with yourself.

If you have an issue with the Irish government's policies regarding Ukrainian refugees, feel free to bring it up.

Real Donald Trump · 20-09-2022 5:44pm

I'm all for people who are genuine being looked after, no problem with that what so all. Just don't like citizens being taken advantage off, that's all. If that make's me far right ? so be it. I think most people feel the same.

TaurenDruid · 20-09-2022 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119642876#Comment_119642876

How dar-

Actually, no, I think you're right, that is how most people feel, me included. Why would you think that'd make you far right?

Real Donald Trump · 20-09-2022 8:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643375#Comment_119643375

Preach the word then, I'm glad we agree on something. Other posters have spoken out against it and have being struck down, being accused of all sorts.

Tonesjones · 22-09-2022 7:11am

Irish resources and available facilities for refugees will be pushed to the limit . With the announcement of partial mobilisation of the Russian army multiples of the current figure may flee Ukraine.

Was the government right to put no limit on the amount of Ukrainian refugees in Ireland? Read OP

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