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Softening house market?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,128 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Sham might be a strong word. I prefer gimmick.

    I do think it's a step in the right direction of transparent bidding processes, but it's handled very poorly.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Interesting, I viewed a house in Galway recently that used Auctionera, I had never heard of it before. The lowest bid you could put on the property was 1k below the asking price, thought that was strange myself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Over half expect a 75 basis-point increase at the ECB’s next policy meeting in October.

    The Irish economy is on life support really. Since March 2020 now there's been supports constantly pretty much. They're going to probably bring back the wage subsidy scheme in the budget next week.

    The laws of economics have not changed. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If the government think they can just spend their way out of this with supports, then it just pushes the problem down the line once that debt needs to be rolled over at higher rates.

    Inflation is now getting baked into the economy and that is as bad for the economy as a recession, if not worse.

    The US Fed are going to cause a recession to break this inflation cycle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Online bidding for houses is something that should be regulated. Otherwise, call it an auction and subject it to all of the rules that a normal auction would be subject to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,566 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    In fairness, you can remove both of those supports over a long term IF you have something in place to replace them. Without going near the ins and outs of problem tenants (of whom there are a hell of a lot less than many would think) paying private landlords to house social tenants isn't a good place to be or a good long term use of state monies. As stated however it would take an almightly turn around in housing policy to see those being removed.

    As for developers sitting on developments they have received planning on - to be fair construction and labour costs, while having lowered a bit of late are still incredibly high - I assume high enough that building at this time of massive uncertainty doesn't make fiscal sense to them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,566 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Agree with most of that, but in fairness there are not many first world economies that haven't been on "life support" the past 2+ years to some extent. Indeed one could argue it is these life supports that have contributed to why we are where we are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    I've wondered about this myself. There was a sharp fall in the markets in early 2020 due to uncertainty about the pestilence. It went away when the lockdowns started and the money printing really got underway. What I'd love to know, and we never shall, is what would have happened without the torrent of funny money.

    As a general point, it seems to me that little of the Western model of neoliberalism / globalism seems especially sustainable. Even without the very questionable financial side of things, the damage to the environment alone is ruinous, and I don't have any faith that driving Teslas and eating crickets is a solution.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,735 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Likely the same thing would have happened.

    During lockdown, the house hunting demographic did not lose their jobs, and they did not suffer a cut in income. They were earning the same money but couldn't spend it. It was a savers dream.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,566 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I think the constant requirement for "growth" or "profits" is the key issue and I'd agree with you on that general comment.

    There are a hell of a lot of jobs nowadays that don't necessarily produce anything of "value" either - I'd be concerned about this angle but look - that's got little to do with housing .



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Maybe, but with no printing of money, there could have been no lockdown, so I suppose it's all just speculation.

    Yes. I've been warned before about straying too much into economics :)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,385 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Not at all. That would be a bit like someone saying in 2008 that there would be no recession even if everyone in construction lost their jobs because loads of people worked in other industries.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,735 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I have to admit, you've completely lost me here.

    What has this got to do with recession?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,385 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    It's an analogy. You appear to be basically saying that if the supports had not been put in at that time, that the housing market would still be the same today. That is not plausible.

    Even over in the US. Printed loads of money. Interest rates back down to zero. Stimulus cheques poured into the stock market and the combination drove the markets up massively. US is putting rates back up again and we are seeing tech companies bringing in hiring freezes. Growth companies soar during times of low interest rates. Because there is very little discounting for all those future cash flows.

    No goverment supports here would have meant a lot of people losing their jobs. Not being able to afford rent/mortgages. Not buying luxuries and hence more job losses. Housing would have decreased rather than increased.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,735 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    No government supports would have meant people losing jobs, yes.

    But the house buying demographics were not on government supports.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,385 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    There were two types of supports. PUP to the person, and supports to employers.

    It would not be correct to assume that everyone who is buying a house now, who did not receive PUP and whose employer did not receive any supports, would have kept their job. In the same way as how non-Construction workers lost their jobs when construction crashed in the last recession.

    As already pointed out in the post - Global tech are implementing freezes. Part of this is due to rising rates over in the US. Something which was just starting to happen, but was reversed when the pandemic came in. If you remember (or even look at a graph), markets around the world crashed fairly rapidly and only recovered rapidly when money got pumped back in. Respected economists were advising people not to "buy the dip" expecting a quick recovery. They were wrong, but only because of government intervention



  • Administrators Posts: 53,735 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I know there were two types of support.

    I am saying, the people who make up the overwhelming majority of the house buying demographic were:

    1. Not put on PUP
    2. Not working for employers that had to close or scale back during the pandemic and avail of government supports.

    It is unclear to me how this can even be a point of debate. We all saw what happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Senature


    I think you are mistaken here. I work doing bookkeeping and accounts. Every one of my clients across a range of sectors availed of TWSS and/or EWSS. Some of the employees have since bought houses.

    There is a perception that only businesses that were closed for prolonged periods or involved in hospitality etc availed of these schemes. This is not the case at all. For example one of my clients is a healthcare provider.

    A quick google turned up a document published by Revenue listing employers who received payments under TWSS. It is over 2,500 pages long. Do you really think none of those employees have bought houses in the last 2.5 years?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Sectors beyond hospitality were affected by lockdowns too. Software companies that produced products for thie hospitality industry were naturally affected, but it went beyond that. I work in insurance, and I know of layoffs due to the loss of business in the industry, and that was with stimulus and supports in place.

    One thing is clear, however. The money printed during the lockdowns went straight into asset markets. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to assume that lockdowns with no supports in place would have caused a major economic incident. Of course, an enormous asset bubble is another problem, but what's the modern globalist world without a constant stream of existential crises? If nothing else, they provide the opportunity to change one's Twitter icon to support the current thing :D



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,542 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Pretty sure banks weren't giving mortgages to employees whose employers were availing of government support (or had done in the previous 6 months?)



  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    Yes, I'm pretty sure there are lots of posts on the mortgage thread where loan offers were rescinded when one of the loan applicants had to avail of PUP.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    It's exactly why we are where we are. Low for too long and excessive, misdirected QE that went into assets, creating bubbles, rather than going into building sustainable societies and transitioning to greener economies. White, older men with their groupthink and stubbornness doubling down on their favourite method to fight a recession. I just hope the next round of QE goes towards building more sustainable economies and societies so the scourge of populism festering the last decade can be combatted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭yagan


    I'm not sure what raising interest rates will do to fight commodity inflation when it's other growing economies in the world that are driving demand. The only thing I see raising interest rates doing is giving the public the notion that someone is in control, when all they can do is lower interest rates later and say "we're doing something". All they've done is hasten the recession that brings about reforms needed to compete against other regional economies driving commodity prices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Imagine if Ireland had invested in non-fossil fuel power stations back in the 90s. We could have a few modern nuclear power plants up and running by now. However, the boomers wanted pensions, and we saw yesterday with the decision on the retirement age, they most certainly will be cashing them in...

    Regarding populism, I feel that there is a very great danger that worsening conditions could leave to either far-left or far-right extremism taking root in Europe. Ireland seems more likely to go the way of the former, but that may not be so elsewhere in Europe.

    I don't feel especially optimistic about the future...



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,405 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I think poorly located houses are in trouble due to the cost of fuel- know a nice house in a tiny village (no school etc) and it’s been on the market since early June. Nothing. You’d have to drive literally everywhere. So reckon that’s quite a consideration especially as it’s in the €390k bracket.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Those same boomers went on a mad spree of building houses and they inherited all their parents picturesque houses in the countryside that they're now just keeping empty and using as holiday homes. Then they have the gall to try and prevent the generation after them from building any new houses in the countryside citing environmental concerns. Yep that generation well and truly pulled the ladder up behind them.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,735 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec




  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭Shauna677


    Should be no issue to the the "work from home brigade" as long as theres good broadband.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,405 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I dunno I think it’s an issue for some places. Broadband ok I think but you’d literally have to drive everywhere. I guarantee if it was closer to a big town it would be snapped up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    The boomer generation has caused a lot of problems in the West, and I don't think that that is even a controversial thing to say. It doesn't mean that all boomers are "bad", but the decisions made as a result of their voting and under their tenure have left a lot of problems that younger generations now have to deal with.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,877 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I think the boomer generation (of which I am not a member) is a convenient scapegoat in online discourse tbh.



This discussion has been closed.
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