Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ClanofLams · 20-09-2022 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641653#Comment_119641653

It’s on the Sunday paper review, maybe 35-40 minutes in it. Jackman considers it a waste of time and says these players would be better off playing with provinces.

Makes far more sense that Farrell and Co wanted to work closer with second string than this squad selected.

Shocking that IRFU didn’t communicate with provinces before committing though, that’s real amateur hour stuff.

aloooof · 20-09-2022 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641517#Comment_119641517

Provinces were very unhappy with tour, so the players now going are not the ones Farrell and Co had in mind to travel, they wanted to bring players who are much closer to senior squad, almost the second string.

I guess we'll never fully know (at least until a few years down the track) but that does seem like a possibility. I think it was Brendan Fanning broke the story in this article, which included these suggestions:

Allowing for significant crossover with the 40-man squad the head coach took on the successful tour to New Zealand last month, Farrell will have a deep pool of players with recent experience of the national set-up ahead of World Cup selection next summer.

Farrell is likely to use those who featured in the games against the New Zealand Maori as his starting point for selection.

So backs Stuart McCloskey, Jimmy O’Brien, Ciarán Frawley and Craig Casey, along with forwards Jeremy Loughman, Ed Byrne, Niall Scannell, Tom O’Toole, Joe McCarthy, Cian Prendergast, Gavin Coombes and Nick Timoney will be in the frame as starters.

That's obviously quite at odds with the actual selection.

But even then, how much of that was his own speculation vs any insights he may have had from a source is open to debate as well.

TRC10 · 20-09-2022 6:11pm

Robert Baloucoune scored a hat trick and single handedly tore the reigning European champions at the time, Toulouse, to shreds in a Heineken Cup knockout match in their own backyard. But he needs to do it in nothing games against the Cheetahs and the Griquas to get into the Ireland team

Make it make sense.

molloyjh · 20-09-2022 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119642987#Comment_119642987

Except, as has been stated numerous times, none of what you’re saying here about the tour is actually true. You’re deliberately ignoring the things that don’t suit your opinion in order to bolster you’re opinion.

RichieRich_89 · 20-09-2022 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119642987#Comment_119642987

You don't think playing for Ireland against lesser opposition advances his case at all? I think his appearance against America whenever it was will have put him in a slightly better position.

If he is behind Hansen and Conway for a right wing spot you could also ask the question when will he get an opportunity for Ireland if not on this tour?

Hopefully playing in this will help him to hit the ground running if he gets an opportunity in the Autumn Internationals.

bilston · 20-09-2022 8:22pm

Baloucoune has little to gain and much to lose on this tour.

He has been in plenty of camps and the coaches and management should know his mentality.

The only thing is, maybe he is there to help someone like Ethan McIlroy or Stewart Moore.

awec · 20-09-2022 8:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641653#Comment_119641653

RWC2027 prep would be absolutely nonsensical 5 years out, so I wouldn't believe that for a second.

This whole thing just seems like a big shambles.

Former Former Former · 20-09-2022 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643522#Comment_119643522

I don't agree, you'd surely bring someone more experienced to do that job.

He's there because the coaches want to see something from him that he's yet to show them. You say the coaches should know his mentality... that's not always a good thing?

He should be absolutely delighted to be going. This is a big chance for him.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 20-09-2022 10:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643522#Comment_119643522

IMO theres 3 back three players on the plane for the rwc (Lowe Hanson and Keenan) with 2 out of 4 (Baloucoune Stockdale Larmour and Conway) others also travelling.

I expect that the coaches have a work on or two for Baloucoune or they want to teach him some moves the squad worked on during the summer.

molloyjh · 20-09-2022 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643522#Comment_119643522

Has he been in plenty of camps? Other than last summer I’m not aware of him being in (m)any.

sprucemoose · 20-09-2022 11:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644104#Comment_119644104

id think keenan is the only one of those thats 100% in the squad barring injury, much as the other two are would be nailed on if the rwc were tomorrow and will of course most likely be in the squad.

Paul Smeenus · 21-09-2022 7:58am

"Nailed on" a year out means nothing.

molloyjh · 21-09-2022 8:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644756#Comment_119644756

I’m not sure I’d agree with that. Obviously injury can play a part, but that’s the same for every player so I wouldn’t have that change the “nailed on” status. The only thing that could would be a serious loss of form and/or a number of exceptional players leapfrogging people. Neither of which are realistically all that likely. I would think it’s fair to call those 3 nailed on at this stage.

For me, after those 3, it gets interesting. I think Stockdale will be in if he can show a consistent run of form. He has that untidy element that Farrell and Catt seem to like, and they tried to utilise that from FB originally. Now that they’ve started to utilise that on the wing then Stockdale could well be battling it out with Lowe for that 11 jersey.

If that’s the case then we have 4 players in the back three and we need 1 more. But we also don’t have a lot of cover at FB, nor overall versatility in the back 3. Most players are single position players only. So who takes that last spot is anyones guess. In all honesty I’d say the coaches would kill to have Addison back and firing. He’d be the perfect candidate for that final slot.

Former Former Former · 21-09-2022 8:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644312#Comment_119644312

Summer 2021

Autumn 2021

Six Nations 2022

Probably a few other get togethers too.

stephen_n · 21-09-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644841#Comment_119644841

Did he not miss the 6N last year through injury?

Former Former Former · 21-09-2022 11:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645430#Comment_119645430

Nope. IIRC, he was injured shortly before it but was fit for the actual tournament.

awec · 21-09-2022 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645457#Comment_119645457

Correct, he got injured in a Champions Cup before Christmas and missed the interpros, but came back for the Champions Cup game before the 6N started and was in the 6N training camp subsequently.

Baloucoune has plenty of camp experience.

TRC10 · 21-09-2022 12:28pm

Nobody should be "nailed on" this far out from the tournament. We saw 4 years ago just how quickly guys can lose form. There are a few positions I see changing in the next year.

One of the biggest problems last time was too many players were "nailed on" in the coaches mind, regardless of form.

Wegians89 · 21-09-2022 12:35pm

Would expect to see some strong challengers provincially at 15 this season. The likes of Lowry, potential dark horses in Hansen and zebo.

Feel Connacht could use Hansen more at 15 this season and Zebo at 15 under prendergast again could be exciting. Think it’d be a very long shot for Zebo to get back into Irish set up but Hansen and more likely Lowry are lurking around that jersey

bilston · 21-09-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644312#Comment_119644312

Last Autumn...he started against Argentina

starkid · 21-09-2022 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119643764#Comment_119643764

it really really isn't.

Christ there is some heads on here who can't see past the IRFu being infallible.

ersatz · 21-09-2022 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647024#Comment_119647024

This is wild! It's not the IRFU it's the Ireland coaches who are preparing for the WC. They want to see something or they want players to show something that helps in selection and/or preparation for next season. You can disagree with it but the idea that they don't know what they are doing or don't have good reason to do it veers into conspiracy theory. Some posters credibility is taking a major nose dive on this thread imho.

Podge_irl · 21-09-2022 5:15pm

You can disagree with it but the idea that they don't know what they are doing or don't have good reason to do it veers into conspiracy theory

All people are doing is disagreeing with it?

People strongly disagree with coaching decisions on this website all of the time.

aloooof · 21-09-2022 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645761#Comment_119645761

There are a few positions I see changing in the next year.

Which positions out of interest, TRC? Personally don't see significant change in the 15. Wing and maybe 6 or 8 seem to a possibility, but I expect it to be pretty settled other than that. For me, barring injury, it's very likely be:

Front row: Porter, Furlong and one of Sheehan / Kelleher.

2nd row: Two of Henderson, Ryan, Beirne.

Back-row: On current form VdF looks a cert, but maybe scope for change at 6 and 8 depending on form. (Farrell has rotated on form here in the past).

Half-backs: JGP and Sexton, barring dramatic drop in form.

Centre: Two of Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose. Hume has an outside chance.

Wings: Lowe, Hansen and Conway feel like the front runners, but maybe some scope here too given the options behind them.

FB: Hard to see anyone but Keenan.

It seems to me it's numbers 16-23 where there's the most scope for someone to come in.

molloyjh · 21-09-2022 5:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119646582#Comment_119646582

Well that just goes to show how utterly sh!te my memory actually is.

RichieRich_89 · 21-09-2022 5:59pm

Porter, 2. Kelleher, 3. Furlong, 4. Ryan, 5. Beirne, 6. O'Mahony, 7. van der Flier, 8. Doris, 9. Gibson-Park, 10. Sexton, 11. Lowe, 12. Henshaw, 13. Ringrose, 14. Hansen, 15. Keenan; 16. Sheehan, 17. Healy, 18. Bealham, 19. Henderson, 20. Conan, 21. Murray, 22. Carbery, 23. Aki

Loughman, 2. Herring, 3. O'Toole, 4. McCarthy, 5. Treadwell, 6. Prendergast, 7. Timoney, 8. Coombes, 9. Casey, 10. Frawley, 11. Stockdale, 12. McCloskey, 13. Hume, 14. Conway, 15. J. O'Brien; 16. Scannell, 17. E. Byrne, 18. Moore, 19. Baird, 20. Connors, 21. Blade, 22. H. Byrne, 23. Baloucoune

Kilcoyne, 2. Heffernan, 3. Clarkson, 4. Kleyn, 5. Ahern, 6. Murphy, 7. Penny, 8. Deegan, 9. Doak, 10. Carty, 11. Zebo, 12. C. Farrell, 13. Marshall, 14. Larmour, 15. Lowry; 16. Stewart, 17. Wycherley, 18. Salanoa, 19. Izuchukwu, 20. Kendellen, 21. McGrath, 22. Crowley, S. Daly

Current pecking orders, 1st, 2nd and 3rd XXIIIs. It gets more debateable the further down you go, obviously. And there's a fair amount of guesswork in XXIII 3.

TRC10 · 21-09-2022 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647239#Comment_119647239

Scrum Half is one. JGP is highly effective at playing the way we want and great when we're in control, but not all games are like that and he's limited in terms of box kicking and decision making. I wouldn't be surprised to see Doak make the squad.

On the wings, I can definitely see Baloucoune forcing his way in at 14.

And I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Sexton picks up an injury, or suffers a 2019-esque dip in in form given his age. He had an amazing season last year but I'd be surprised if he's still playing to that level in a year. Of course, I hope he is.

This may be a long shot but it's not impossible that one of the young locks like Ahern, McCarthy or Izuchukwu come into the mix.

But regardless of injury/loss of form, Farrell needs to keep things fresh. If we go into the world cup with the entire starting XV from the NZ series still in situ, that's a bad thing IMO.

ClanofLams · 21-09-2022 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647187#Comment_119647187

It’s the IRFU who, per Bernard Jackman didn’t communicate with the provinces at all before committing to this. The coaching staff wanted to bring the second string, which makes far more sense than this squad which includes players a million miles from selection, but provinces were very unhappy and as a result it ended up with this mish-mash of a squad.

Ultimately the tour now isn’t serving the purpose the coaching staff had in mind at all and is likely a waste of time. That’s on the IRFU, in addition to undermining a new league which has made a point of avoiding international windows so that teams in it will be as strong as possible.

aloooof · 21-09-2022 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647645#Comment_119647645

The one thing about Sexton (and possibly TH, LH and FB as well) is that he's so far ahead of the guys behind him that even if his form dips, he could still be ahead of the alternatives.

Agreed on the wing, and I could possibly see SH too, which could come down to whether this is the season Casey gets ahead of Murray provincially.

Farrell has enough credit in the bank now that hopefully we'll see a few changes in the AI's anyways as a means of keeping it fresh, regardless of what he thinks his best 15 is.

ersatz · 21-09-2022 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647696#Comment_119647696

If you're basing your opinion of the tour on pundit gossip then away you go. We have no idea what the politics of this are and frankly, it does't really matter. The interests of the union and those of the provinces are often misaligned and most of the time the province's coaches understand it as the name of the game. They move on! And as I said earlier, this is a WC season, all bets are off.

Meanwhile, if you look at the tour I'd count 6 backs (Balacoune, Blade, Daly, Doak, Osborne & Frawley) and 7 forwards (Witcherly, Soroka, Prendergast, Penny, McCarthy, Hodnett & Deegan) as already having caps or possibe/likely caps in the next year or 2. Others will disagree with that list and Im sure it's not very accurate but I'd argue there is the makings of a team in the next few years going on this tour. The Irish coaches think it's worth it and if they have a successful season it is worth it.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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