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General British politics discussion thread

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Borrowing to fund sound investment is fine but doing it to fund handouts to Tory donors is grotesque.

    I don't think your average Tory donor is a PAYE employee earning over 150k though. Their money is from wealth, not standard income.

    Cutting the top tax rate is pure trickle-down ideology. It is too easy to think of it all as a "handout to their donors" when the reality is that there is also a deeply worrying ideological bent to this government.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1 epictetus


    Certainly weird that a 'mini-budget' can make the biggest tax cuts in decades and signal a significant change in fiscal policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,094 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Restricting access to benefits while simultaneously removing caps on Banker's bonuses is possibly the most Tory thing ever.

    I mean they're not even pretending anymore.

    Any mention of "Levelling Up" by any chance?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,033 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    I'd say those who voted Truss over Sunak feel silly now - under her watch the UK economy will be destroyed. The whole point of rate rises is to combat inflation even if it brings about a recession - they have just done a 180 with this budget and are now actively trying to give more money to people which will cause more inflation.

    If they stick this course, the UK could well enter an inflation crisis



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Most analysts say it is a major budget - a mini budget (or even non budget) is clearly a fib.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    I think for those who voted for her this is exactly what was written on the tin...



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,094 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The Forex markets don't appear to be too impressed anyway:




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,986 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    George Monbiot, as he often does, sums it up perfectly. These are the thinktanks that get the seat at the table on virtually every BBC politics discussion programme. It's a rigged system.


    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,313 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I was going to snark that these people don't know what they're doing.

    But, of course they do. Truss et al know precisely what the intent is here, know exactly how far they believe they can push people into poverty - and they just don't care. It's full blown, no-pretence Trickle Down Economy and ... well. We know exactly how we it has gone Stateside; forget Scotland, at this rate Newcastle and the like will be wondering if the border can move south of Berwick.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,983 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,388 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    £ touching $1.09 now, levels not seen since 1984 (for short-term comparison it was $1.22 when the leadership campaign started). Bond yields up half a percent today, FTSE down 2% today. These are things which should really have been priced in by the markets as there was nothing announced that hadn't already been signalled in the last few days.

    Not an auspicious start.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,983 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'm a Fine Gael supporter and voter, I'm what I think of as a rabid centrist; pro-enterprise and innovation economy, investment in life long education and training, but with a good safety net and quality public services.

    Thats probably enough for me to be called an ultra-right fascist by many in this Country, leaving aside Gemmabots, but really I look across the water at these one-time One Nation Conservatives and my jaw hits the floor.

    The trickle down can't work if the bonanza created at Level 1 is all taken out of the economy at Level 2. Its absolutely insane and I'd now be very worried about the civil and societal fabric of large parts of Britain. It could be a winter of discontent to make 1979 look like Glastonbury.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Are they? I daresay plenty of them are senior management consultants, accountants, elite lawyers and the like. They're not taking this level of flak for nothing.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,935 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    That sounds fine at this point. They needed the pain. The Tory boil needs to be lanced.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,935 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    The trickle down is a lie. It never worked. It couldn't possibly.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,935 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Ha ha. Sorry, yes you're absolutely correct. But I think @Larbre34 probably meant it working in a more altruistic way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,094 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I lived and worked in a regional town, for a 6 month period, back in 2010. It was a bleak place that voted heavily for Brexit 6 years later. I was genuinely shocked at the poverty levels in some of the areas of that town. Real "Benefits Street" stuff.

    I cannot even begin to imagine what those areas are like now, after 12 years of the Tories making inequality even worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,699 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Probably the same. Those places were nothing but charity shops, Spoons and a Costa to begin with.

    Actually maybe the Costa closed down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,094 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    I recall it had a lot of bookies, pubs and pharmacies and a really large Iceland store that sold frozen meals for £1. It also had a British Army recruitment office. The local job agency advertised had job vacancies in their window. I recall them advertising cleaning jobs that payed £6 per hour.

    I suspect a lot of Brexit Britain was like that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,699 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Pubs is a surprise. Places I saw had a Spoons or 2 and a Green King for a posh night out. 6.20 was the minimum wage round 2012 and it was 8.20 in 2020. Thing is you can live off it because cost of living is low but only if you live a life of Spoons and Iceland with 0 frills.

    Those places scared the life out of me. Not in a rough way but in a when I need to leave London I might end up here kinda way.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    This just seems to cartoonishly stupid. You almost couldn't make it up.


    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I mean, I don't have stats to support it to hand, but I would consider those people more Tory voters than Tory donors/bigwigs. The impression I have is the ones contributing to the Tories are sitting on wealth and bringing in income from dividends etc. They are not PAYE workers.

    I think they are taking this level of flak because they fundamentally genuinely believe in "trickle-down economics". I think they are utterly misguided ideologues rather than corrupt. You can decide for yourself whether that makes it better or worse.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Truss has all the hallmarks of someone who is so stupid, she embarrasses the term stupid.

    She brought in a bill to cancel the NIP, which is asking the EU to start a trade war - thinking that shouting and banging the table gets anywhere in EU terms.

    She has formerly been a LibDem, - now she's not. Also against the Monarchy, now she's not. Against Brexit, but now she is not. Looking for a USA trade deal, now she's not.

    Now she is cutting income taxes that favour the rich hugely, and throwing that extra borrowed money into the economy in an effort to combat the inflation such actions are bound to create. Absolutely nuts.

    All the BofE can do now is to raise interest rates (while they still are allowed to) which will increase the cost of borrowing all this extra money (all they already owe) which they do not have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,839 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    In all honesty, Sunak was never going to beat Truss. At first he talked sense, that tax cuts would fuel inflation, but then he flip-flopped and tried to outplay Truss at her own populist game. Had he stuck to his guns, he could claim that he was the steady hand that kept things under control as Chancellor and that he called things right in the leadership contest. Imagine he hadn't tainted himself by promising tax cuts, he would really look like PM material right now.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Sure but it's like the old adage about Americans opposing wealth taxes because they're temporarily embarrassed millionaires. You don't have to be a millionaire to support policies designed to enrich the 1%. People here have been voting for that since Thatcher. The people you're talking about will of course enjoy lavish incomes from investments and assets but that's not to say that they don't want more, even if it is a few thousand on top of an income in the millions.

    They probably do believe in trickle down economics but the problem is that the cabinet is a group of yes people who went to private school, including Kwarteng who attended Eton. Nobody there ever worried about paying for the heating or the rent.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,983 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I did, in the sense that there needs to be a vigilant and constant analysis of the economic flow to show that the paradigm works.

    Like for example, in Ireland we back a system of low corporation tax to attract high value employment and high salaries, which in turn forms the wider tax base. Disagree with the concept if you will, but there's no doubt it has made this a rich Country.

    In Britain today, they've presented that budget, in the same week that multiple Cabinet ministers have persistently refused to deny that the Truss administration will erode workers rights by removing all legacy EU derived rights and not mirroring them in British law.

    Even Thatcher must be spinning in her grave over that shyt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,699 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Even the term "trickle down" is disgusting.

    Got a very live off the scraps and left overs vibe.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Looks like one Tory darling has been making a killing:

    LONDON, Sept 22 (Reuters) - Crispin Odey, one of Britain's best-known hedge fund managers, has made a killing this year by wagering against British government bonds, with his firm's main fund up 145% in 2022 after shorting long-dated UK debt, sources said on Thursday.

    This is what it's about. Truss' problem is she's going to have to call an election soon and so far, she's got nothing. Nobody wants fracking except the paleo-free market types and there's nowhere near enough of those, pensioners don't want to see the BBC scrapped (or to die of cold) and borrowing to fund the rich.... It's like she's eating the chess pieces.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,447 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    GHW Bush nailed it when Reagan first spouted off about it in his 1980 campaign: "Voodoo economics."

    Didn't Liz Truss use that phrase? Because the old GOP called it 'supply side' economics, whatever that meant. "Trickle Down" from a party whose previous PM occasionally said things about spaffing up the wall is an image, well, I've ruined my own evening now.



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