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Licensee renting troubles

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    #32
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119647509#Comment_119647509

    The law is that if you are renting an entire property you are entitled to sublet to a licensee regardless of what is in the lease. The law trumps any lease. The landlord needs to be notified but has no say on the matter.

    • Licensee – is a person allowed to reside in a rental property but has no rights as a tenant. A licensee in a private rented dwelling is there by invitation of the tenant, the relationship of a licensee is with the tenant and not with the landlord. The tenant is under a statutory obligation to inform the landlord of the identity of resident in the dwelling however, the landlord is not in a position to to accept or veto the individual concerned as he/she would with a tenant. The tenant is responsible for all of the acts and commissions of their licensee, should the licensee breach an obligation applying to the tenancy the tenant will be in breach – example of breach could be anti-social behaviour or redecorating without the landlord’s written consent.

    Subletting is very different to a licensee situation

    • Subletting – is where a tenant permits another party to lease the rental property and they move out. The rent is paid by the other party to the tenant and the tenant pays the landlord. There is an obligation on the tenant to get the landlord’s consent in writing for a subletting, subletting can only take place with the consent of the landlord.

    For landlords renting a whole property to anyone is a bonkers decision as they cede control and all rights to the tenant. They can get licensees in, they can Airbnb it and there is not much you can do. A better way is to rent individual rooms on a licence basis but that is a lot of effort for a small time landlord. Hence the movement of small time landlords from the market.

    For example someone renting a 4 bed house for a few years at under market rate, say 1000 a month. He could decide to keep one room for himself and rent the others out at 600 a month pocketing 800 a month. The landlord cant increase the rent because its in a RPZ. He cant do anything about the tenant, and he has no say or access to the excess rent. And to top it all off the tenant does not pay any tax on the excess income because he is covered under the rent a room scheme. Bonkers

    Post edited by snowcat on


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    #33
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653418#Comment_119653418

    That is not what subletting is, there is no such law which entitles a tenant to sublet, it can only be done with the consent of the LL, who can refuse.

    The text you quoted relates to licensee rights when in situ, it does not relate to their right to be there in the first place. The last line of your quote would seem to be the relevant one, if the licensee being there breaches the lease, then the lead tenant is in breach of it.



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    #34
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653424#Comment_119653424

    Not correct.

    Licensing arrangements in private rented accommodation are often confused with sub-lettings and assignments. 

    There is a difference between the above mentioned and it is important that landlords know the distinction.

    The main difference is that when a tenant assigns or sublets the rental accommodation, they no longer live in it. However, if a tenant takes in a licensee, the licensee shares the accommodation with the tenant.

    If your tenant takes a student or any other licensee under the rent a room scheme you cannot object as a landlord.



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    #35
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653452#Comment_119653452

    Ok, before you post anymore rubbish, read this:

    https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/subletting-and-assignment

    When you post about entitlements, we can only assume you mean legal entitlements, for that, it is important to know the distinction between subletting and taking in a licensee.

    While the op’s posts are not very clear, it seems this apartment was rented to 3 people, there are 3 there, op makes 4, which would breach the lease. Op might clarify. Also, worth pointing out that the tenants have not yet been there for 6 months so do not have Part 4 rights.



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    #36
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653503#Comment_119653503

    I can only assume you are an amateur landlord who does not understand the law. Im a professional Landlord. What you posted deals with subletting. Im not going back and forth but you need to specifically focus on licensees and get away from sub-letting. Taking a licensee is not sub letting. Note point 4.

    https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/licences



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    #37
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653513#Comment_119653513

    This is what YOU posted:

    “The law is that if you are renting an entire property you are entitled to sublet to a licensee regardless of what is in the lease.”

    Has the lead tenant moved out? If not, please stop referring to “sub letting”, professional landlord or not, the op’s situation has nothing to do with subletting.

    Also, as a professional landlord, if you rent a 3 bed house to 3 tenants, how many licensees would you be happy for them to take in, 1, 3, 8? The op’s friend has a lease, presumably for three people to rent that property, has one moved out? there is no law that entitles more people than that to rent there. If you know one, post it, what you posted is not it.

    Post edited by Dav010 on


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    #38
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653540#Comment_119653540

    Im not sure what you are referring to regarding the lead tenant. If they have moved out then it is subletting and not allowed. If he has rented the whole property and is still resident then the op is a licensee.

    The law does not restrict the amount of licensees. Again it is up to the owner/tenant, nothing to do with amount of bedrooms. Yes it could be 8 and even unlimited and tenancy law does not have any clarity on this. There is no legislation in Ireland on the amount of persons that can occupy any dwelling, rented or not as long as fire, health and safety issues etc are not present.

    On a side note I would never rent a full dwelling to anyone as it is a minefield. There is easier ways to be a full time landlord.



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    #39
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653665#Comment_119653665

    There most certainly is legislation related to the number of people occupying a house, as a professional LL, you should know this.

    Show me the legislation which allows a tenant to add more occupants in breach of their lease.



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    #40
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653689#Comment_119653689

    No there is not. If you dont know your facts stop posting misinformation.

    Breach of a lease is irrelevant. Leases are not worth the paper they are written on. The law is what takes precedent.



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    #41
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653859#Comment_119653859

    Which law permits unlimited tenants, or even tenants in excess of the lease agreement to occupy a house?

    Please post the link to this law.



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    #42
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654163#Comment_119654163

    You are using wrong terminology. Again I am referring to licensees. There is 3 categories. Landlord Tenant and licensee. There is only legislation that licencees are allowed but no upper limit is given.

    • Licensee – is a person allowed to reside in a rental property but has no rights as a tenant. A licensee in a private rented dwelling is there by invitation of the tenant, the relationship of a licensee is with the tenant and not with the landlord. The tenant is under a statutory obligation to inform the landlord of the identity of resident in the dwelling however, the landlord is not in a position to to accept or veto the individual concerned as he/she would with a tenant. The tenant is responsible for all of the acts and commissions of their licensee, should the licensee breach an obligation applying to the tenancy the tenant will be in breach – example of breach could be anti-social behaviour or redecorating without the landlord’s written consent.

    A tenant can invite as many licencees to the house as they wish and there is no limit on how long they can stay as long as the landlord is informed. A licensee is not a tenant and the property is therefore not sublet so not in breach of any lease term. Note the text in bold.



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    #43
    DFB-D
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭DFB-D


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654497#Comment_119654497

    Where is that from?

    I was advised of the same when creating my lease agreements (a long time ago now but after the RTB act), so not surprised, but curious to know more about it!



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    #44
    dennyk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭dennyk


    There is no entitlement in the law to allow tenants to bring in licensees. The only thing the law requires is that the landlord is given the names of anyone who is in regular occupation of the property. However, the law also does not otherwise restrict or prohibit tenants from taking in licensees. As such, the landlord can add terms to the tenancy agreement that prohibit the tenant from taking in licensees, and if the tenant breaches that term then their tenancy could be terminated due to that breach. If the landlord doesn't add such a term to their agreement, however, then they have no statutory right to prevent the tenant from taking on a licensee.

    This is in contrast to rights which are explicitly granted to the tenant by law and cannot be overridden by a tenancy agreement (e.g. minimum notice periods or Part 4 tenancy rights), and to rights which are explicitly granted to the landlord by law and apply regardless of whether they are in a tenancy agreement (such as the right to deny permission to sublet the property or assign the lease to another party).

    Regarding the number of licensees a tenant can bring on, while that isn't explicitly limited in the RTA itself, it would be effectively limited by the Part 4 grounds for termination, one of which is "[t]he dwelling is no longer suitable to the accommodation needs of the tenant and of any persons residing with him or her having regard to the number of bed spaces contained in the dwelling and the size and composition of the occupying household". In other words, if the tenant invites a dozen licensees to live in his 3br house, the landlord can terminate the tenancy on the basis that the house is now overcrowded if the tenant doesn't correct the issue.



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    #45
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654497#Comment_119654497

    You are misinterpreting the highlighted part, the LL cannot veto the individual “concerned”.

    The LL cannot veto the licensee chosen by the tenant, but that by no means entitles the tenant to allow anyone in addition to the number recorded on the lease to live there.

    Despite what you claim, there is no legislation which entitles the tenant to breach the lease and allow as many people they want to live in a rented property.

    If you are correct, post the relevant legislation.



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    #46
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653540#Comment_119653540

    Unless something is proscribed by law, it is permitted.

    It may be debatable whether a clause in a tenancy agreement would take precedent over a tenants right to peaceable enjoyment of their home (including having guests or licencees) but no explicit permission would be required.



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    #47
    DFB-D
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭DFB-D


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654756#Comment_119654756

    I estimate some of this is your own personal opinion?

    I wouldn't deduce, in the manner you explained above, that a landlord can successfully terminate based on a lease term prohibiting licences, but maybe you have more information on it.

    I think the legal advice I received wouldn't be different from other legal advice, unless my solicitor at the time was useless, and I did want such a term in the lease.



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    #48
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655038#Comment_119655038

    That is the question I am asking the other poster, he/she claims it is an entitlement, and that the entitlement can over ride the terms of a lease. In this case, what entitlement over rides the terms of John’s lease? Is it a statutory entitlement provided for in the RTA that a tenant can let as many people as they want live in a rented property even though the lease prohibits anyone above the number on the lease? Could you link to it please.

    John has a lease for three people to live in the property, he cannot sublet and cannot bring in additional licensees to the three on the lease. What legislation gives statutory rights making that non binding?



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    #49
    thugtomas
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭thugtomas


    The landlord has fair reason to refuse, they never agreed to this person or Licensees/subleters, could be from the point of view of fair wear



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    #50
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655101#Comment_119655101

    Section 12(1)(a) of the Residential Tenancy Act obliges a landlord to allow the tenant of the dwelling to enjoy peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling


    and


    section 18(1) which states no provision of any lease, tenancy agreement, contract or other agreement (whether entered into before, on or after the commencement of this Part) may operate to vary, modify or restrict in any way section 12 or 16.

    In that the act in section 16(k) specifically prohibits assigning or subletting without the landlord's consent but is silent on the matter of a licensee and section 16(n) obliges the tenant to notify in writing the landlord of the identity of each person (other than a multiple tenant) who, for the time being, resides ordinarily in the dwelling. It is clear that occupants (a licensee for example) other than the tenants are provided for and allowed by the act.

    At either extreme it would be clear if a tenant or landlord were in breach of their obligations but there is room for some debate in the middle ground but I would say three tennants in a four bedroom house taking in a licensee in the fourth bedroom would not in itself be a breach of the tenants obligations, provided of course they notify the landlord in writing of the additional occupant.



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    #51
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656510#Comment_119656510

    Back to the subletting again? Has John moved out and sublet the property? No according to the op, John is still there, so why are you bringing up subletting terms in the RTA?

    The landlord is not inhibiting peaceful enjoyment of the tenancy but restricting the tenancy to the number of tenants on the lease. The op stated in the opening post that it is a three bedroom house, not four.

    So again, what legislation over rides the lease agreement limiting the the tenancy to the number of tenants agreed in the lease? What you posted does not answer that question.

    Post edited by Dav010 on


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    #52
    YellowLead
    Registered Users Posts: 7,829 ✭✭✭YellowLead


    It’s good that you wanted to get your name on the lease - but why not ask for that before you moved in?

    You knew well it was sketchy, that’s why.

    There’s no way any landlord who is renting out rooms in a properly should accept some random et they haven’t vetted moving in. What about the other people living there? Why should your friend make money out of this? The whole thing is bizarre that you think you are entitled to stay there - from a moral perspective never mind the law.



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    #53
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656609#Comment_119656609

    From the OP's posts it is clear John has not moved out. It is clearly a licensee situation.

    If you read carefully I was clarifying that the RTA specifically provides for subletting to require the consent of the landlord but does does not require taking in a licensee to require consent of the landlord, only written notification from the tenant to the landlord of the people ordinarily resident in the house.

    It is clear therefore that the act provides for and permits people, other than the tenants, to be ordinarily resident in the property.

    Given that the act makes provision for persons other than the tenant to be ordinarily resident in the property, this must be considered part of the tenants right to peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling.

    A clause in the lease which seeks to restrict this right would be in breach of section 18 of the act r.e. no contracting out from terms 12 or 16 permitted and therefore not worth the paper it is written on.



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    #54
    Smoke420meme
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Smoke420meme


    Clarification: The 3 bedroom house was rented to John and only John. John's brother then moved in, which the LL was fine with and asked for his details to ad him to the lease. Then John asked me to move in and that's when the LL had problems.

    It may have been that John didn't ask him first, if it was ok for me to move in.

    Either way it's not over crowding, ie there is one person for each room. 3 bedroom house, 3 people.



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    #55
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656891#Comment_119656891

    I am not arguing that John is not able to take in a licensee, if a tenant on the lease leaves. I am asking you a very simple question, what part of the RTA over rides the lease agreement that states the number of tenants permitted to live in the property? A lease agreement which the LL states is limited to the number of occupants agreed with the tenants when signing the lease. Has one left?

    So far the op has not clarified, that I can see anyway, how many tenants are on the lease. What we do know is that the LL is stating that an additional tenant would breach the lease agreement.

    So far nothing you have posted over rides the terms of the lease, nor that it is an “entitlement” to have an additional tenant.



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    #56
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656981#Comment_119656981

    You are missing the point. It does not have to be in the lease agreement. The landlord has little or no control if a licencee situation is created. If he agrees a certain rent for the property that is the rent. As long as it is paid he has no control over the licencee situation. If a licencee then wants to become a tenant that is a different issue. Like all Irish tenancy law it is a minefield and it is no coincidence landlords are leaving as there is too many tenant rights and 'grey' areas.



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    #57
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657112#Comment_119657112

    Show me where the legislation over rides the lease in relation to the number of people renting the property.

    We are going around in circles, and nothing you or anyone else has posted shows that if a property is let to a set number of tenants, and that number is agreed in the lease, that the tenants are entitled to take in additional tenants in breach of the lease agreement.

    Where does the RTA state a landlord cannot have the number of tenants in the lease agreement, and that it is non binding?



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    #58
    newmember2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,596 ✭✭✭newmember2


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656962#Comment_119656962

    You can stay as a licencee of the existing tenant.



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    #59
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657320#Comment_119657320

    Who may not be there long as they don’t have Part 4 rights yet, and the tenant is breaching the lease.



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    #60
    newmember2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,596 ✭✭✭newmember2


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657330#Comment_119657330

    As already explained to you, if the tenant taking on a licencee was breaking the lease, then the lease itself may be unlawful.



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    #61
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119657347#Comment_119657347

    Show me where the lease agreement which states the number of people renting in the property is unlawful.

    No one has been able to quote or link the relevant legislation yet.



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