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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa


    Point taken. Not being exposed to losing an extra yard of pace is likely another reason. But the muscle mass you lose by running sprints every game exposes the body to future injury at back three also.

    At ten you can drift out off first phase and leave the ten channel to back row. Likewise off following phases. It’s possible to avoid tackling forwards if you organise your back row properly.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Spot on, tbh. There’s a reason a 6/2 split is a thing and a 4/4 isn’t.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    It's the up and coming lads that will be the future. Minus Sexton, Carberry is next up. Is he good enough? Time will tell. I don't think he is. RB is not good enough, nor is Carty.

    Burns could be a placeholder. He seems to be a prototype 10. Minus the goal kicking.

    The monkey on our back is HB! He's just not got the matches in his cv. His physicality is questionable and although he's still young, it's hard to see him staying fit for any period of time.

    Then there's Healy, Flannery and Crowley!! I think one of these lads could do the business, eventually. Who knows, Hawkshaw may grab the bull by the nads and stake a claim! Tector and Prendergast? Both look talented and hopefully can make a run at the provincial level.

    Besides oh, the cupboard is fairly bare in other areas. Loose head for one. Going into a world cup with Kilcoyne or Healy is not ideal. Hopefully Loughman or someone else can have a stormer of a season. Likewise with 9. Murray doesn't inspire confidence, Casey or someone else must step up.

    A nothing tour will at least get young players into the system. A good environment and tour could benifit the youngster down the road. Frawley will have to deliver something! If he's seen as a 10, time is short.. .



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Frawley is obviously seen as a 10. He's not seen exclusively as a 10, but his selection in the Maori games there (for whatever reason) and his selection there tonight, plus everything that's been said by the Irish coaching staff about him, indicate he is clearly part of their thought process at the position.

    You say time is short for him, but suggest other guys like Healy, Flannery, Crowley or Hawkshaw have a better opportunity? He's clearly seen as ahead of all of those guys (except possibly Ben Healy) by the Irish coaches, and clearly seen as considerably ahead of David Hawkshaw by the Leinster coaches.

    He's 24 (25 in 3 months), and, with the exception of Healy, he's gotten considerably more rugby into him than any of those guys you mention, who are largely 23 years old.

    If we take 3 OHs to the RWC; right now, you'd have to figure Ciaran Frawley is in pole position to be the third guy taken. Sexton & Carbery are currently ensconced as 1 & 2, and after that it's a question as to whether or not he opts for an experienced guy like Jack Carty, Ross Byrne or Billy Burns, or a younger guy who could emerge this season (Ben Healy the only likely candidate here in my opinion).

    There's a lot of rugby to be played between now and then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I think the fact that Frawley is the only 'emerging player' allowed to play this weekend is very significant. I would bet that if he was going to be playing 12 or 22, Ireland wouldn't have released him.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Outhalf is really a problem position for us, we really lack depth there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Bundee aki showing today why his best days in green of ireland are behind him..



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Very weird thing to say. You clearly didn't watch the NZ series in the summer.

    Ireland's most consistent performer since 2017 arguably, and somehow one game for Connacht means he's finished. You clearly have an agenda against Aki. Wasn't it you who was calling for him to be dropped from the squad a while ago?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    It was me yeah... I said his form badly dipped for the end of the season for connacht last year. He was very poor in the games v Leinster and looked like he had thrown in the towel for connacht after that.

    I was proposing Frawley, Henshaw, Ringrose and Hume ahead of him for the world cup due to his form and lack of versatility.

    He's now gotten at least 3 red cards against his name all for high hits..

    he hasnt learned abd he is a liability at this stage.

    He came on today and just stunk the place out. 3 penalties in 10 minutes and capped it off with a silly clean out costing his team a try and a chance in a game they in contention of winning.

    He then remonstrates with the referee and linesmen. Chances are he will be banned for the November internationals anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Aki was excellent against New Zealand when he came back into the side after Ringrose's injury. I've no issue with him being in the squad and he's certainly still a top three centre for Ireland.

    He'll be 33 during the World Cup and I reckon that might be the time to start phasing him out. But he's definitely still worth his place.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    If you'd seriously rather have Frawley at 12 for a big world cup game ahead of Aki, you're mad. Frawley doesn't have the physicality or robustness to play 12 at that level. I'd have McCloskey ahead of him. Aki is Ireland's best 12 and has never let Ireland down.

    The versatility argument is a weird one. Should we drop Sexton for the same reason? Or Henshaw? Or Lowe?

    Nobody is denying he had a sh*t game today. But writing off one of Ireland's most reliable and consistent performers, because of one sh*t game, after outstanding performances in our historic series win a couple of months ago is just bizarre.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭Former Former Former



    The versatility argument is a weird one. Should we drop Sexton for the same reason? Or Henshaw? Or Lowe?

    Sexton, Lowe and Henshaw are first choice players, their versatility is irrelevant. Aki is not.

    If Stockdale takes the 11 jersey back, then Lowe very likely isn't going to the RWC.

    Regardless, Aki will still be in the squad but his discipline and self discipline are far bigger issues than his versatility.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    Mccloskey surely going to get a well deserved shot in November now, would have him as third choice centre



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    There's no reason to think McCloskey will be in the 23 tbh. He's not a better 12 than either Henshaw or Aki. And he doesn't have the versatility like Henshaw to play at 13 either.

    He has been 4th-5th choice centre in the eyes of Irelands coaching team for about 7 years now. I don't think that's changing.

    McCloskey is in that Ruddock/Jack O'Donoghue position where he has been putting in great performances for years, but his peers have been even better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Sexton, Lowe and Henshaw are first choice players, their versatility is irrelevant. Aki is not.

    Not right now maybe. But that can change very quickly and the world cup is a year away. I just think leaving out one of your 3 best centres on the ground of versatility is a weird one. Remember the squad size has been increased to 33, making versatility less of a pre requisite. We have guys who can cover the back 3 like Carbery and Ringrose, but nobody I'd trust to cover centre.

    If the world cup was tomorrow (assuming an 18/15 split) I'd go with

    (3) JGP, Murray, Casey

    (3) Sexton, Carbery, Frawley

    (4) Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose, Hume

    (5) Hansen, Lowe, Baloucoune, Conway, Keenan



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    He’ll be in the 12 jersey for Fiji and the historically Ringrose and henshaw have very rarely got through an international window without some sort of injury. Personally believe he’s better than Hume. Also he’s in amazing form so getting to show that in camp too will be an advantage



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    with frawley able to cover 12, would the possibility of a Earls / Jimmy o brien type who could cover back three and 13 not be of more benefit than 4 centres?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Frawley was seen as a 10 after HB was injured. Once again, he needs to grab his chance by the nads.

    Aki has 4 red cards in the last 4 seasons. He will be phased out post world cup. But, he will travel next year if he's healthy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    What was the 4th red card. There was today, England, and Samoa.


    The stats website misses a 4th one too.



    I'll be honest and admit that I have concerns about his discipline. I'm not going to doubt his quality though. I suspect that he will be 3rd choice center going to the world cup.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Larmour is an option in that mold as well. I’d have him ahead of JOB.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Aki's distribution game for Ireland sets him apart from all other options at 12 bar Henshaw. It's a massive part of Farrells game plan. Aki will definitely travel if his form doesn't go out the window.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I thought he got a red card in 2017? I must be wrong! I thought it was a urc match!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I went digging. He was cited for misconduct in 2017.



    He also got a citing commisioner's warning (essentially an after game yellow) for mouthing off at a referree in early 2022.


    You may have counted the citing as a red card mentally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Thanks for that! I knew it was something, thought he was red carded.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I wouldn't be comfortable with Frawley travelling as 2nd choice 12. Henshaw goes down in the warm up and all of a sudden Frawley is playing 12 v France in a 1/4 final. I think we need to bring two specialist 12s.

    I'd trust Ringrose to cover wing, much more than I'd trust Earls to cover 13. I can't see Earls making the squad to be honest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I'm pretty sure that the argument for only bringing 3 centers is that 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice at both 12 and 13 are Henshaw, Ringrose and Aki.


    Whoever the 4th choice center may well be break glass in case of emergency.


    If there is a back 3 player that barely misses out of the squad and can cover 13 there might be value in sneaking them into the squad as 4th center/6th back 3 player. At least then they offer some extra flexibility in the 23 shirt.


    The name I'm thinking about isn't Earls. Instead it's Larmour.


    That said I think McCloskey will have a good season and be the standout option for the 4th center spot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I believe that a break glass scenario, Ringrose could cover 12.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Ciarán Frawley, Caolin Blade, Alex Soroka, and Alex Kendellen have been ruled out of Emerging Ireland’s tour of SA.


    Cathal Forde, Ben Murphy and David McCann called up to the squad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Wow, that changes the complexion. Terrible luck for Frawley. Ten is jinxed is you're not Ross Byrne.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    It certainly feels like 2 of the players who had the most to gain from this tour are out of it. That is terrible luck.



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