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Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭elacsap


    Apologies if this has been covered before.

    Can anyone summarise for me please the position regarding the bottle of wine. I didn't pick up on this on either documentary. Is it covered on the West Cork podcasts?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "All the evidence (apart from a mistaken guess at height) suggests this man was Bailey. He was also loitering while Sophie was in Spar."

    Ian Bailey seen across the street from Spar wore a long trench coat, huge boots, and carried his long thinking stick, was 6'4" and well built,

    hardly the 5'8" or 5'10" person Marie saw across the street who was "sallow skinned" slight build, and wore cap with no peak.

    According to our Marie she was able to recognise the person the following morning on Airhill as this same person.

    It was 7:30 am, still an hour and 10 mins before sunrise and at least 30 mins before first light at this stage, but she recognised him as she drove by him in the dark.

    In her first phone call on Christmas day and her report on 27th Dec. she had already supposedly seen a man on Kealfadda bridge between 3 and 4 am. on the night of the murder, but it was not significant enough for her to mention in the report or phone call.

    However a full 2 weeks later on Jan 11th it became significant enough to call up using the false name Fiona and report it.

    Poor Marie was being played like a violin probably by the Gardaí through hubby Chris to clear a few pending charges.



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    A full bottle (unopened) of expensive wine was discovered in a field further on from Sophie's cottage.

    The wine was not available in Ireland at the time, so may have been brought into the country via an airport / ferry port.

    The suggestion is that it may have been flung into the field from a car?

    Why would anybody throw an expensive bottle of wine into a field?? Especially given it was so near the murder scene...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Yes, found by local lad John Hellen, son of Sophie’s housekeeper some 3 months after the murder, about a Kilometre away from the murder scene, on Hellen’s land.



  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭elacsap


    Thanks for the info re the vino.....

    I guess it begs other questions like what are the implications of this?

    Is this discovery, in itself, supportive of Ian Bailey's innocence or the contrary?

    I have visited Sophie's house - I'd love to know where precisely is the Hellen's land?

    Thanks again



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername



    “I have visited Sophie's house - I'd love to know where precisely is the Hellen's land?”

    Not precisely, but in Dunmanus East, a mile from Sophie’s house en route to the Prairie Cottage a further mile and a half away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Your demand for a perfect description of the suspect from Marie makes no sense. She probably wasn`t standing at the window staring at the loiterer across the street. She had at least one customer in her shop at the time. Marie is a shortie, to her 5`10 is tall. The difference between 5`10 and 6`4 is less than the physical length of your post....from across the street....c`mon. Bailey is sallow skinned. Is today, clearly was back then. Cap...beret...hat...headgear. You see a guy outside your shop, you see him again on the road the next morning. Oh there`s that man I saw yesterday. Now Marie, can you please think hard and give us his accurate height and describe exactly what he was wearing when he was outside your shop five days ago?

    Williams saw Bailey across the street from Sophie, probably within minutes of Farrell`s sighting. Bailey was on the Airhill Road that Farrell was driving on at approximately the same time the following morning. She said it was the same man and she didn`t know Bailey at that time. How unlucky can a guy be?

    He drives up Hunts Hill on the night of the murder, mulls over going up Sophie`s laneway, predicts something is about to happen. He goes home, asks Jules to come with him up Sophie`s laneway. She`s too tired, so he goes to bed, but he then gets up, leaves the house. In the hours he is missing from his bed, Sophie, that nice lady who lives up that laneway, is battered to death. How unlucky can a guy be?

    He has a bloodied scratch on his head the next morning that nobody has seen before. Witnesses testify that he and Jules knew about Sophie`s death before they were actually told about it. Witnesses testify that he knew and met Sophie and yet he denies it. He buys bleach on Xmas eve, burns cloths, footwear and a mattress over Xmas. Just how unlucky can a guy be?


    He tells several people he killed Sophie. How unlu..... actually nah, not bad luck, that`s just In Vino Veritas.

    He sues a number of newspapers for what he considers to be their unfair coverage of him. But 20 separate witnesses stand before the judge and under oath, contradict various aspects of his testimony. Come on now folks...how unlucky can he be?

    There just comes a tipping point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,832 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It was an expensive bottle of French wine, think I read earlier on the thread it was priced about 70 punts back then.

    Some further information which may or may not be related to the murder... There were reports of holidays homes in the area being broken into and their drinks cabinet raided.

    More info here if you have an Indo premium account...

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/sophie-toscan-du-plantier-murder-a-discarded-unopened-bottle-of-wine-re-examined-41001318.html

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭elacsap


    Thanks everyone

    I found this on Google

    Co-creator of West Cork podcast challenges latest "rumour" in Sophie Toscan du Plantier case - Yay Cork


    I know I'm pretty new to this stuff but my strong initial sense is that I'd be very wary about what Foster says!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


     "The difference between 5`10 and 6`4 is less than the physical length of your post".

    Six inches actually, '.(Deleted, below the belt, too many cans)

    Marie knew 6 inches when she saw it.

    I saw " he drives up Hunts Hill......" then I gave up .

    "Now Marie, can you please think hard and give us his accurate height"

    Maybe he was big but far away;


    Post edited by chooseusername on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,832 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I see you are already repeating your 'loitering' claim which was already discredited. You admitted yesterday this was a fiction you invented.

    It's the difference between someone who is tall and well over average height - or not.

    She didn't just get his height wrong in inches, she got his height wrong categorically and relative to her husband.

    Someone who is describing Bailey who doesn't describe him as tall - isn't describing Bailey. We're not looking for a perfect description. This isn't an imperfect description, it is flat out wrong.

    Yet magically she can identify people in the dark on the side of the road from a moving car.

    She'd never seen Bailey on the main street of the small town she runs a shop on... despite his frequent visits including into her shop. And yet magically saw him three times over the course of the same weekend? How lucky can she be?

    Witnesses testify he had the scratches before the murder from a busy day killing turkeys and cutting down a christmas tree. Witnesses further testify the scratches healed up quickly suggesting light scratches not deep briar cuts. If he got cuts at the murder scene why is there zero forensic evidence putting him there?

    Half of West Cork probably knew about the murder before they were 'supposed' to.

    All of this has been dealt with and discredited by the DPP, three of them, who know a thing or two about real evidence and none of them put Bailey forward for trial.

    The judge in the libel case was the same judge who gave astonishingly light sentence to one of the witnesses, Leo Bolger. Astonishingly light considering the sentences he handed out for similar offences. The judge also ruled much of the defence evidence, including the former DPPs! on procedural grounds.

    How unlucky were all the innocent people who have ended up in prison through miscarriages of justice across the globe?

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭tibruit


    " I see you are already repeating your lie about loitering"

    Based on Marie`s description of what she saw there is no doubt that the suspect was loitering.

    "It`s the difference between someone who is tall and well over average height-or not"

    When you are as short as Marie, 5`10 is tall.

    "She didn`t just get the height wrong in inches, she got his height wrong categorically and relative to her husband."

    I`m pretty sure the comparison to the husband was first mentioned after she swapped sides, started batting for Bailey and after several meetings with Frank Buttimer. That was when 5`10 became 5`8. I don`t know where choosername gets 6`4 for Bailey because the DPP said he was 6`2. Therefore Marie was only 4 inches out in that first statement.

    "Yet magically..."

    No magic required. Just a good set of headlights.

    "She`d never seen Bailey on the main street..."

    WCP says he never saw her either.

    "Witnesses further testify the scratches healed up quickly suggesting light scratches, not deep briar cuts."

    This describes exactly the type of scratches that were visible on Sophie`s upper arm around her elbow.

    "Half of West Cork..."

    Well we know that Bailey was first told at 1-40pm. A witness says Jules was in Goleen and knew about it at around 11-30. Jules denied she was in Goleen but another witness saw her driving in that direction that morning. Two witnesses say Bailey told them about it before 12-30. Now how did he know?

    "the DPP"

    Ah the good old DPP, who didn`t address the testimony of some witnesses at all and didn`t make himself aware that the studio was actually down the road from Jules`s cottage and you wouldn`t be popping down there on a winters night in your jimjams and slippers.

    "How unlucky were all the innocent people who have ended up in prison through miscarriages of justice across the globe?"

    Indeed. I wonder how many of them made unforced confessions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭Ms Robini


    Re the three DPPs you mention, I understood that the person in the DPPs office that wrote the unsigned, unofficial paper analysing the evidence against the prime suspect was a Mr Sheehan, an official that had been overlooked for promotion and who seemed to struggle with following the directions about inadmissible evidence given clearly and unambiguously by Judge Hedigan in the High Court during the ultimately unsuccessful wrongful arrest case brought by Bailey against An Garda Síochána. Many experienced people have quite rightly expressed very valid concerns about the legal soundness of Mr Sheehan’s analysis.

    So as opposed to three DPPs, the analysis was completed (to a very questionable standard) not by the actual DPP at all, that is neither Eamonn Barnes or James Hamilton. Who is the third DPP you are referencing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Probably Claire Loftus, took over from Hamilton in 2011.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Clottie


    Christopher Charles Doe was a violent wife beater in the UK before his move to ROI. He was reared in Bristol and had a large maternal family in the Valleys in South Wales. He had worked on Concorde as an electrician and bragged about his involvement. He had convictions for assault; for trying to ram a car containing 4 off duty police officer; for stealing christmas trees from forestry commission land; for shooting and injuring teenagers at a village hall disco in a south welsh village - he served a prison sentence for this; for impersonating a police officer in his 20's. He was a volatile and dangerous man and was well known to police in the area where Jules lived in south wales. He left his first wife and started a relationship with Jules and implied he left Wales "in case the tax man finds me". He probably changed his name to hers to try to hide his criminal past. But he was a real Walter Mitty - so who knows if this tax man story was true. He had no children from his first marriage. When he returned to Wales to bury his brother, his eldest daughter refused to travel with him from Cork. He lost an arm in an industrial factory accident and was awarded a lot of money for compensation. He lived in a bungalow in Schull where these two poor girls were groomed and assaulted. I believe at the time of Sophie's murder he had already lost one arm, but, he was a very strong, muscular tall man - so i believe he could have had the strength. He was investigated by the Garda.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    According to this Times article it was Barnes' decision not to prosecute but he had not signed it off.

    Sheehan was in charge of the file when Hamilton took over as DPP in 1999. Hamilton went through the file again with Sheehan and 2 senior counsel and they agreed there was still insufficient evidence to prosecute.

    Bailey wrote several times to the new DPP Clair Loftus who took over 2011 asking her to have him prosecuted, but she refused due to lack of any new evidence.




  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    There was around 50 original suspects on the 'possibilities' list...

    I would suggest anybody with previous form for violence was pretty much on that list.

    Regretfully, a recent survey shown that a third of Irish women had reportedly suffered from domestic violence, that is nearly a third of the male population in current relationships prone to giving their respective women a slap from time to time....

    (Before the politically correct brigade start... I accept there are many types of domestic violence, the emotional cruelty can be just as severe as the physical torment... And yes, domestic violence has many levels, and I do not make light of any of them)

    Jules ex husband is only one of many, nothing special about him, no more than any other wife beater.

    That's why evidence is so critical, can't pin a murder on a man's previous sins, no matter how abhorrent they are / were.



  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭tibruit


    May not be a first post. One individual has posted under at least four different handles on these threads previously.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Jules turned up at the concert for Sophie. What to make of it all.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5




  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5


    Wouldn't be the first time a murderer has posted on this forum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike




  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Evergreen_7


    Apparently sitting with Jim Sheridan according to an independent article today.

    either they’ve switched sides or it’s a massive slap in the face for Sophie’s family.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    and


    It still surprises me that this "how can you find this place without a sat nav" is still going on.

    I still have no sat nav and found it with ease and I am certainly no local.

    Maybe somebody can paste the full article, I don't have access to it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Wasn't the lad supposed to be reciting poetry at the Sophie gig...??



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Its certainly curious Jules & Jim Sheridan attending the concert today but I dont think its right to say it points to Bailey being guilty in any way. Sheridan obviously has a deep interest in the case so his presence is not surprising. Jules not so much so but in saying that, she's a local & if she had stayed away, it might have raised more questions than answers.

    Certainly at this stage, if she had any doubts about Baileys innocence, she would have come forward. I think it points to Baileys innocence even more now the fact that she still hasnt come forward about any suspicions she would have had about Bailey in the immediate aftermath of the crime.

    She would have known imo if he committed this crime, she would have seen a change in his behaviour, a nervousness, anxiety, blood stained clothes or blood stained marks on the car, its inconceviable she wouldnt have noticed anything. It would make Bailey out to the perfect murderer and im sure everyone on this thread can be confident he's the opposite of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    A map.

    I admit I didn't find it straight away, but if you go on a hunch and a bit of common sense thinking you'll find it.

    There are only a limited number of options between Kaelfadda Bridge and Dunmanus. Two or three wrong turns, turn around the car, but you'll get there.

    I wouldn't want to say, any fool can find it, but anybody with a sense of direction and ability to think on ones feet can do it with considerable ease.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername




This discussion has been closed.
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