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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    1.4 bn on meters sound familiar to another scheme. Money wasted on shoddy retrofitting no Idea how much but 60k a pop minium. Could have built a decent amount of modern rated houses for that. not everything need to be top rated start as you mean to go on B or whatever. Give free cavity foam to olad gaffs and insulation. Door insulation all that cheap as chips and would have more impact than a few with top rating. Ofc all new builds should have high standard but top is not needed and a waste of money and makes the houses very very expensive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,343 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    I may have mentioned it before but the bringing back of aluminium cans to retailers for refunds will be hell on earth. Annually I'd confidently estimate not even 0.5% of my can useage ends up outside the recycling environment, the new system will be a complete pain in the arse solving a problem that doesn't exist, every can will need to be presentented in pre crush condition so it can be read and registered along with a massive facility in each retailer.

    The end result will be householders will be charged massive increased bills in their recycling as the value of regular waste will collapse as a result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I remember as a kid collecting the bottles with 2c and alike on then 25c on good ones. Used to buy my sweets with that little bit of hard graft and you had an ice cream when the van came around. Cans in Aus for example you can make decent money just collecting as a kid if you don't mind sticky hands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,296 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yup, this is the only way forward, we urgently need a joint european approach to our energy needs, and this needs to be driven at the state level, or we re probably fcuked!



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm a bit fuzzy on the details because it's been a long while since I last looked at them, but I believe that the recycling at retailers facilities are designed to increase the level of plastic recycling. They should also be able to recycle cans, but as you show with your own example can recycling is already very high as a %, plastic bottles, not so much.

    Serious question, what would you say your % level of plastic bottle recycling is at? When the deposit return scheme starts, would you foresee your level increasing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,357 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Haha but you won’t hear how the councils are now panicking and putting in fossil fuel boilers as back ups to heat pumps in council houses as a lot of the houses use top up meters.


    So if the user doesn’t top up the meter in winter the heat pumps go bust.

    Hence the back up fossil fuel boilers.


    An absolute farce.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    we urgently need a joint european approach

    The current European approach on marginal prices has caused the cost of power to soar - posturing by the EU on windfall taxes for power companies is another stunt designed to save face.

    I wouldn't let the charlatan europeans (specifically the germans) next or near a 13A plug let alone a power grid. Time they were told to fcuk off and when they get there fcuk off some more.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    You run the gas off the electricity and the electricity off the gas and we save 200 pounds a year 😁

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Idle curiosity.

    You have been of the opinion that opinion polls do not show the true level of Green Party support in Ireland, but you appear to believe this Citizens Assembly should be taken as the be all and end all when it comes to the general public`s level of support, or lack off, on an issue.

    Was this Citizens Assembly not established using the same methodology by Red C Research and Marketing in selecting the majority of its members, so how do you square that circle ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    There is a saying that originated in Asia: No food, one problem. Lots of food, many problems. Right now, and for the next few years, day to day survival will be the major concern for most of us: Cost of living: More than a million people in Ireland struggling to make ends meet. As you can see from the protests the lefts dalliance with ‘bourgeois’ environmentalism has come to an end.

    The GMB, which is affiliated to the Labour Party and has 460,000 members, represents the majority of workers at the UK’s nuclear power stations, such as Hinkley Point, Sellafield and Dungeness.


    Smith said that the government had wasted “years on financial engineering rather than investing in our energy infrastructure”. “And now we are going to lose electricity generating capacity in the next few years,” he added, pointing out that Britain’s nuclear power stations, with the exception of Hinkley Point, which is under construction, and Sizewell B, are expected to be offline by 2030.


    “And the question, therefore, is where is the electricity going to come from? We cannot do it by renewables and we cannot rely on energy imports. Norway’s not going to be exporting electricity this winter and neither is France. If we have a ‘beast from the east’ – cold weather with no wind – we’re going to have massive problems in the UK in terms of electricity generation. Nobody has woken up to what is coming around the corner.”


    source

    In the UK, even before the war happened they were having problems with diesel supply.

    Britain relied on net imports to cover almost 40% of its distillate consumption in 2021. Russia was the single largest source, accounting for 33% of all distillate imports and 17% of total consumption.

    Diesel imports from Russia can be substituted relatively easily from other sources since the volumes involved are not large on a global scale.

    Britain has announced it will wind down Russian imports over the course of 2022 ("U.K. to phase out Russian oil imports", BEIS, March 8).

    But there is not enough diesel and gas oil available from other sources for all European countries to make the same substitution at the same time.

    Transport run on electricity?? The UK has been de-industrialising, shutting down coal generation and nuclear and relying on gas and inter-connectors.

    Even before the war, this was becoming apparent.

    Intermittency is expensive


    Wind and solar farms do not pay for the costs of the intermittency they cause. They therefore have little incentive to minimise them. It is a nonsense to compare the costs of wind with the costs of, say, gas or nuclear without including the back-up costs for wind necessitated by the intermittency. As set out in the Cost of Energy Review, the right answer is that every generator should have to bid their Equivalent Firm Power (EFP) cost into the system operator. That is the true system cost, and if it were reflected in the EFP bids, it would tell a very different story about the costs of offshore wind. It would also be a great incentive to do something about it.


    Now that wind makes up a much bigger share of total capacity, this really matters – and it needs a much bigger investment in back-up capacity. The economics of that back-up capacity is seriously impaired by the wind at times producing wholesale prices of zero – when the wind is blowing well – and very high prices when it is not. In the old fossil-fuel and nuclear system, total capacity requirements were of the order of 70–80GW. For a system where wind sometimes can produce all the energy demanded and sometimes very little, that firm power capacity needs to remain in place, plus the wind turbines too. We need a great deal more capacity to meet any given demand. That has to paid for by someone.


    In the current energy crisis, it is this intermittency that has been a major factor in shaping the huge impact of a gas price spike. Low wind has to be taken into account. 2021 was a year with exceptionally low wind. The worry comes in winter, with low wind, high pressure, and cold air over Northern Europe.


    source.


    While Green Party politicians and climate NGOs and activists are not entirely to blame for the unfolding crisis, their dishonesty may well cost them dear anyway. The future has arrived, and the eco-austerity is only just beginning, wind turbines will do nothing, to lower the cost of living.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You have been of the opinion that opinion polls do not show the true level of Green Party support in Ireland

    Where did I say that?

    you appear to believe this Citizens Assembly should be taken as the be all and end all when it comes to the general public`s level of support, or lack off, on an issue

    If you have questions regarding the use of these assemblies, take a look at the site below, it may answer any questions you have

    As to the impact these assemblies can have, take a look through the info on the previous ones




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So you do accept that opinion polls represent the level of Green Party support. Good to know.

    I do not pass much attention to this Citizens Assembly one way or the other, but I have always found it a bit puzzling that FG campaigned for the abolition of the Seanad, even to the extent of holding a referendum, yet just a few years later established an assembly put together by a polling company.

    Perhaps we should just select governments on the same basis. Not that I would be in favor, but it would stop a lot of these tail of the dog parties in a coalition holding the country to ransom.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So you do accept that opinion polls represent the level of Green Party support.

    Where did I say that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The Citizens Assembly was established using the same methodology used in opinion polls by a polling company. For the Citizens Assembly it was Red C Research and Marketing who regularly publish political opinion polls.

    So what makes one opinion poll representative and the other not ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    One of the things the Greenies on here like to do is to poo-pah either nukes or LNG on the basis that we're so far down the road on renewables that those other technologies are either too late, or would take too long to implement, or are unnecessary because we are so close to renewable self-sufficiency. I thought it would be instructive to look at how badly we've already missed previous targets for wind energy and are likely to continue doing so. (Not that I mind the targets being missed as I think the high cost of renewables is utterly destructive to the economy).

    Back in 2011 the SEAI produced this graph (cf. SEAI Wind Energy Roadmap 2011):

    Looking at the graph and other details from the report:

    • Electricity consumption to exceed 30,000 GWh around 2020.
    • 20,000 GWh generated by wind power around 2022 comprised of onshore and fixed-foundation offshore.
    • Cost of onshore wind by 2025 around €66 per MWh. Cost of offshore wind projected to be €140 per MWh.
    • Electricity generation from wind to exceed demand by around 2028, leading to an export-driven market.
    • 500 MW of offshore capacity installed by 2020 and 4,500 GW by 2030.
    • 500 MW East-West interconnector by 2012, further Irish-UK 500 MW interconnector by 2018, further 2000 MW Ireland-UK and Ireland-EU interconnectors by 2030 and beyond.

    How are we doing so far?

    • The consumption estimate was spot on: we passed the 30,000 GWh mark in 2020 as predicted. (Slightly at odds with CSO figures which give 28,500 GWh for 2021, but in the ballpark).
    • We missed the projected generation target for 2022 by a mile. While the official SEAI report even for 2021 won't be produced until the end of this year, unofficially the number comes in at less than 10,000 GWh (down from the 2020 figure due to a bad wind year). After a little over ten years we look to be at least five years behind schedule.
    • We missed the cost estimate by a mile. Onshore wind in 2022 has a strike price 50% greater than what was predicted for 2025. You'd like to be able to say costs are still dropping ... but they're not: they're up 30% in the last two years. No estimate for offshore wind yet, first auction might be held before end 2022.
    • Does anyone think we have a ghost of a chance of exporting excess electricity by 2028? Will come back to this below.
    • No new offshore wind was installed by 2020, and there's reason to believe the 2030 targets are in considerable trouble.
    • The East-West IC was on schedule (not surprising since it was only 12 months away in 2011). Second UK interconnector is at least six years behind schedule (more below). The first EU IC, the 700 MW Celtic Interconnector to France, obtained its licenses in 2022 and construction planned from late 2022 to 2026.

    The delayed UK IC is the privately funded Greenlink interconnector from Wexford to Pembrokeshire. Years of consultations, impact assessments and delays with required new legislation set it back. The foreshore license application was finally made in August 2019 with construction to commence 2020 and be fully operational in 2023. Final go-ahead actually happened in April 2022, with construction to start 2023 and operations by end of 2024 (which sounds ambitious compared to the original construction schedule).

    The biggest delay looks to be the offshore wind sector. This has been a planning disaster which has driven two of the biggest external investors from the market. Wind energy generation was supposed to exceed demand by around 2028, leading SEAI to declare that "a comparison of electricity demand and wind generation potential shows the capacity for Ireland’s wind market to become export driven in the 2020–2030 timeframe". At the time storage wasn't really a glint in anyone's eye and there was no mention of a hydrogen economy (that being a later dose of hopium by Eamon Ryan). Hopes were pinned on the interconnectors which would give a "great capacity for Ireland to export excess wind energy in the 2020 – 2030 timeframe."

    Back in 2019 the ESB conceived a new "green energy hub" for Moneypoint. They announced it in April 2021 with a poncy name reminiscent of the most pretentious hotels -- "Green Atlantic@Moneypoint". It was to include a synchronous compensator to facilitate renewables, a manufacturing site for floating offshore wind turbines, and a green hydrogen production facility. They were being partnered by Equinor, who were also going to be involved in two offshore farms totalling 1.4 GW off Clare and Kerry -- nearly 30% of the 2030 offshore capacity target. Equinor pulled out in November 2021, citing planning and regulatory barriers.

    "A spokesperson for Equinor ... said that based on the totality of its analysis it had decided that other geographies are more interesting or promising than Ireland. The spokesman acknowledged that the regulatory process is part of the totality of the decision."

    At the same time as Equinor were withdrawing from the Irish market, Shell announced that it had bought a 51% share in the Western Star 1.3 GW floating offshore wind farm off Kilkee. Shell were also involved in the 1.3 GW Emerald offshore wind farm in Cork. This week, Shell pulled out of Ireland saying it "was leaving Ireland to focus its efforts on countries with more accommodating legislative frameworks".

    Ironically this was shortly after Eamon Ryan announced an increase in the 2030 target for offshore wind from 5 GW to 7 GW. You can't say he's not keen (some would say rabid). But what would we actually do with all that wind in the unlikely event it got built by 2030? Hydrogen is still a distant hope. As we've seen, wind power fluctuates from zero (no matter how much of it is installed) to something approaching nameplate capacity. We have to pay for fossil fuel backup for the times the wind doesn't blow. We also have to pay for the grid infrastructure, connectors, storage and/or hydrogen generation when the wind does blow.

    Do we have to pay for wind power when the wind does blow but there's too much of it to use? This situation will be facing us if ever the nameplate capacity exceeds system demand. It's often been claimed on here that we will sell excess electricity over the new interconnectors. (I'm always intrigued by who "we" is supposed to be -- it's as if the Greenies are claiming that Ireland Inc. will be the beneficiary of such sales, as opposed to the private venture vultures who fund wind farms).

    Just as buying power over an interconnector will be subject to availability at the other end, selling it will be subject to demand. If there's no demand then the electricity is worthless ... worthless to us that is, the wind generator will still have to be paid curtailment charges. Up to now, the grid operator has only paid compensation for grid constraints, where some physical problem or limitation on the grid prevents the dispatch of available wind power. From 2024 it will have to start paying curtailment fees as well. Just one more way the tax payer will get stuffed multiple times over for renewable electricity.

    To summarise: wind capacity is way behind its 2011 schedule, prices are way higher than forecast, interconnectors are years behind schedule, licensing and permitting delays have crippled projects and caused investors to pull out. If the schedule has already slipped at least six years in the last ten years, why should we have any confidence in the plan? Are we going to actually have generating capacity to power all the proposed EVs and heat pumps? The only saving grace is that those will probably be a mile behind schedule too. Sounds like a classic Irish botch job on all fronts which will leave nobody happy -- the Greenies will be frustrated about the delay, the rest of us horrified by the waste and ineffectiveness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Well, the Germans are trying to sort out their energy needs, meanwhile in Ireland the Greens sit on their hands and tell us to prepare for power cuts, their incompetence has reached new levels.

    https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-olaf-scholz-welcomes-energy-security-deal-in-uae/a-63231070



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


     Just one more way the tax payer will get stuffed multiple times over for renewable electricity.

    Every single time. Taxpayer gets shafted, while Eamon Ryan and his cronies who advocate for and preside over this mess get to swan off into the sunset with a huge pension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭ginger22


    If you want to hear the truth https://www.facebook.com/malcolmrobertsonenation



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    So the Greens will likely say this is a good deal. Give a Russian company 2 million euro to clean up their mess. I am going to go off and shout some fancy French in the back yard for a while. Please excuse me...

    Dan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,211 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Shell bailing out of a number of offshore wind projects due to the difficult legislative and regulatory environment in Ireland and the general lethargy around renewables from the government speaks volumes. What an embarrassment.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Another doozie from the Greens, smart meters for the masses, they must think we are stupid and are going to pay higher charges to avail of these "smart" meters, reject these meters people and the greens,theres only so much we can take from them.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/not-so-smart-meters-how-some-new-smart-plans-have-customers-paying-more-not-less-for-energy-bills-42013780.html



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Those are being installed by the ESB and the program to do that kicked off in 2019.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,211 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Do you think the Minister of the day has any responsibility for programmes underway in their department? Do you think the Minister of the day has any responsibility for making these smart meters more attractive and useful?

    The lengths you go to defend Eamon Ryan is actually unbelievable. It's frankly weird to be so invested in defending an incompetent individual to the extent you do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    And further implemented and accelerated by the Greens, we even had the Ryan telling us to avail of them and get cheaper energy,we need to remove the greens, thats the only solution. Other parties do environmentalism in a more just and equitable way, the greens only care about the wealthy cliques that support them, time to get rid of them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The roll-out of smart meters began in March 2020. This government has been in place since June 2020 so practically all of those close to 1 million meters t a cost of at least 500 million euro were installed during the life of the present government.

    Your memory appears to be shot to hell. You were told the same just yesterday.

    The ESB is a statutory corporation whose members are appointed by the government which owns 95% of the shares. The relevant Minister being one Eamon Ryan



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,211 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Ryan needs to go. He's useless with numerous issues in his department and clear evidence of lethargy and incompetence. Still no legislation to legalise escooters, smart meter debacle, companies walking away from offshore wind, low cost retrofitting loan scheme was supposed to be available in the summer but nada and emerging evidence of substandard work on retrofits. The list is growing.



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