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2020 officially saw a record number of $1 billion weather and climate disasters.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    But if you remove the 2007 and 2012 dips the trend changes. My point is that the 2012 event happened and could easily happen again in the next few years reversing the 'pause' trend

    The same thing happened with atmospheric temps post 2008. An extremely warm year meant a 'pause' in the statistical warming over a short timeframe but it a was short lived bumb in the road



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Can we do that? Remove the points we don't like?

    I'd be willing to wager that we won't see a decline like the 2000-2010 decline any time in the next 30 years with the AMO switching phase to negative.




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Could a massive dam between Alaska and Russia save the Arctic? (adn.com)

    The entire region is experiencing rapid climate change, and scientists predict the Arctic Ocean may be ice-free during summer by 2030.

    When that article was wrote in 2010 the scientists were predicting an ice-free summer minimum in the Arctic Ocean by 2030 - I notice @Akrasia has pushed it out to 2035 - thought we were to "follow the science"? Or have the goalposts moved again?

    Anyway, the article linked above - Damming the Beiring Strait would be a massive project and would be interesting to see what effects it would have on the Arctic region as a whole.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    What are you talking about??

    Damning the arctic?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Well meteorologists and climatologists very often remove the outliers to understand a trend, so its not just removing the points we don't like, it's a standard statistical technique



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    So 2012 was an outlier? That's strange, because I remember at the time there was a whole lot of hoohaa about it and it was "a sign that the ice is being lost at an even faster rate than we forecast". You seem hell-bent on doing anything to ignore that flat or slight rising trend over the past decade and a half.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    2012 is an outlier and should be removed from the data, also 2012 melt event could easily happen again in the next few years.


    Slightly confusing.


    Pakistan floods, Sydney fires, China drought… not outliers, but a sure signal of civilisation collapse. Unless in 10 years if they skew the data then they will be outliers. Is that how it works?


    To the untrained eye. Outliers in this case could be confused as cherry picking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,461 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    I may comment in the future on the weather aspects of these questions but there seems to be no point in talking about the political side as perhaps I don't have a very complete understanding of how far to the left European politics have become. Perhaps the politics will rebound to the right a bit as people starve and freeze to death thanks to the faulty assumptions of the past generation of "experts."

    But then we will hear that this is all Putin's fault, nothing would have gone wrong with the master plan, except for his interference. Possibly so.

    My question to you would be simply this, if what people discuss at Davos and Bilderberg are in your best interests, then why aren't you there? Why aren't you allowed at least to listen? I am from a political tradition where having elites in other countries running the government is not seen as a good thing. If that's not the case for you, I have no place in these discussions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,461 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    I have outlined this concept before, but to be clear, this is intellectually the only honest and testable paradigm for "ever increasing severe weather events in recent times." Let's see how it actually plays out, comparing the past to the future from 1980 which is most climate workers' idea of when global warming climate change set in.

    Any event before 1980 is tested for similar events after 1980. Then you can run the test the other way, post-1980 vs whatever is the closest analogue pre-1980.

    The results do not make a very good case for an increase in severe weather events.

    The one minor detail in this system that needs clarification is that you take the past years anti-sequentially to preserve time of year, in other words, Jan 1981 would be compared to Jan 1979 and Jan 1990 would be compared to Jan 1970, etc. Also my list is fairly heavy on North American examples, somebody else could perhaps look into other global regions, I do include several Irish-UK examples though.

    I have put various extreme weather events pre and post 1980 in the same table to give an idea of the "score" of both sets. It is handy that 1980 is largely devoid of potential entries, although there was a major heat wave in the south-central U.S. and a landfalling cat-5 hurricane in south Texas. So these are ignored as being "self-reflections" in the paradigm of this study. All I can say here is, post-1980 will have to up its game to keep up ...

    PRE-1980 ______ POST-1980 ___________ Most similar occurrence

    winter 1977 ____ -- -- _________________ winter 1994 (similar severity)

    from now on in the table, when there are similar pairs like the above, they are listed together so we'll start again ...

    winter 1977 ____ winter 1994 ______ not greatly different in impact

    ice storm 1958 __ ice storm 1998 ___ 1998 worse impacts

    Camille 1969 ___ Katrina 2005 _____ if anything, Camille was the worse of the two hurricanes

    (1893) ________ Hugo 1988 _______ this is a point scored by the recent period, even the 1893 'cane was not as strong

    tornados 1974 __ tornados 2011 ____ the 1974 outbreak was more severe

    European cold winters 1963, 2010 ___ the 1963 winter was more severe

    UK heat 1976 ___ UK heat 2022 _____ could call this a tie (1976 a longer spell though)

    Debbie 1961 ____ Ophelia 2017 _____ in meteorological terms, close to being a tie, Debbie had a different path of maximum wind gusts

    1953 heat waves __ 2015? ________ the notable late Aug-early Sep heat of 1953 has not been matched (closest was 1973, also pre-1980)

    1941 western Canada heat __ 2021 __ the latter had more extreme values, the timing and duration were similar

    Long Island express 1938 __ Fiona eNS 2022 __ two different regions but similar outcomes, some have commented that 1938 was 50% stronger*

    1936 heat wave ____ reflection point is 2024 __ few if any real comparisons with later summers especially those post-1980

    1934 super cold Feb __ 2015 _______ fairly close in numerical terms, somewhat more extreme in 1934. reflection point is 2026

    1926-28 FL 'canes ___ 1992, 2004 __ the net impact of these two seasons (with different separations) about the same, different locations

    1925 major tornado __ reflection point is 2035

    1900 Galveston hurricane __ 2008 Ike a weak analogue, reflection point is 2060.

    ____________

    One could go on with this sort of comparison, the general concept seems to be that anything extreme post-1980 has at least an equal pre-1980, and the balance point is not always 1980, looking through the list, the balance point seems closer to 1985 or 1990.

    So then as a purely intellectual and not political question, what is the foundation of the always increasing severity of "climate emergency" weather events? Is it not just a case of the media finding isolated instances and not doing any comparison with past events? These large and well-known outliers do not seem to make a case for anything much beyond a steady-state climate or even (dare we say) global blanding.

    There was another comparison available with very strong typhoons that seemed to reach the same conclusion. Yes we do see some extreme weather events nowadays. But their analogues are hiding in plain sight in published weather data.

    • * the 1938 hurricane hit the coast further south as well as west, so given that difference I would be inclined to rate them similar as tropical cyclones.

    If people just want to say, well those facts don't fit our new globalist morality, sorry, retract those and put up some officially correct orthodox facts, then we are into the realm of Orwell rather than Hubert Lamb. It's sad that all the smart people are dead now. We could use them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,461 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    And as to "what is globalism?" well the answer is simple ... this quote will provide an answer:

    "To learn who controls you, ask who are you not allowed to criticize?"

    We are in the early stages of a growing tyranny that has existed in other forms in the past. Right now, you can criticize but you pay a price to do so. In the future that may be a harsher price. What I've posted could (in the future) be labelled a thought crime and define me to be a "climate criminal." We can only speculate what the punishment for that could be. But make no mistake, my opposition to all this has already cost me a lot, probably more than you might imagine.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    What is called climate change modelling is equivalent to a flat Earth assertion so proponents and opponents have created their own little world where proving each other wrong is beside the point that the planet is round, rotating with specific values attached. In itself such a false argument is fine when it is contained within the small academic world, however, sometimes its explodes into wider society where it does not belong and therein is a genuine problem for humanity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    You went back in time to dig that one up



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    I didn't dig anything up, however, it is useful to see that in the modelling world, opponents can suddenly become proponents of dire predictions. If the summer is hot it is a sign of global warming, if there is a severe Atlantic storm or a cold snap then it is climate change in winter, if it is a mild winter then it is global warming so wider society is kept chasing its tail on account of a climate change/global warming conviction without going anywhere. The referenced post was an example of that.

    While some in the meteorological community will continue to pursue the misadventure with the Earth science of climate, some meteorologists will be ahead of the curve so to speak and recognise the vast area of research which opens up when a balance is struck between weather and climate within the larger umbrella of planetary dynamics and planetary climate. The frequent use of Von Humboldt, who recognised that extreme assertions lead to polarising convictions whereas research anchored in interpretation encourages enjoyment of nature, is meant to convey that my perspective is neither new nor outside normal consideration.

    We all get a sugar rush from an approaching storm, hot or cold snaps and extreme events, however, the wider perspective of cyclical nature in terms of cause and effect has been sidelined so climate change modellers could go on a rampage with computer modelling. For example, just as the Arctic sea ice season begins, then hurricane season in the Northern hemisphere starts to wind down so it takes nothing to consider how the motion of the polar latitude into the dark hemisphere of the Earth influences both sea ice and hurricane season at lower latitudes as the cold spreads out in an expanding cuircumference with the North pole at its centre.

    The only means to negate the polarisation of climate change opponents/proponents is to raise the standard of consideration.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Who are you not allowed to criticize and what 'costs' have you incurred?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    MT spoke of it multiple times in threads you were active on.


    Every post now needs a full appendix and summary of previous posts to inform those who don’t want do their own research?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    His claim that all these costs whatever they are are 'probably more than you could imagine' would imply he hasn't though wouldn't it? It doesn't make much sense if he's already spelled it out somewhere.

    Same for this entity that we're not allowed criticise because of all the tyranny, who's that supposed to be? These threads area nothing but criticism of anything and everything. Maybe you could fill us in as you seem to know?



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402



    The area surrounding the South pole where the Sun remains constantly in view is expanding as the South pole turns further and further into the light hemisphere of the Earth and where the distance to the planet's divisor and dark hemisphere grows. This radius reaches its maximum on the December Solstice and therefore creates a maximum circumference called the Antarctic circle.

    Chances are that observers won't even bother looking at the images affirming facts.

    Planetary climate is the rate of change in that circumference and that is determined by the degree of axial inclination to the orbital plane. Jupiter's inclination is most distant from the orbital plane so has negligible equivalents of the Arctic/Antarctic circles while those circles of Uranus are enormous with rapid changes from Equinox to Equinox. This is planetary climate in respect to planetary dynamics, nothing more and nothing less

    Society cannot afford the pretence which takes the name of climate change modelling no more than it can take the type of intellectual and perceptive weakness where people are lost but will bluff anyway with stock phrases and misguided slogans. No wonder the dictator in Russia thought the West was weak when it is only misguided in certain matters and the silly exploits of meteorologists to sequester climate as a long term weather issues without reference to basic planetary dynamics in a Sun-centred system.

    Most participants in this newsgroup are afraid as they realise a minority group tried to take the reins of planetary climate through computer modelling and burned heaven and Earth on that account. Once again, society cannot afford a stupid indulgence which reflects the nadir of scientific consideration.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,461 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Well to make a long story short, the weather establishment has always been rather a closed shop, even before the AGW period, and I found that having a very slightly alternative path through academics and work experience (amounting to zero differential in skill level) still made me persona non grata anywhere but private weather companies where results rather than orthodox qualifications were the main standard for hiring. This pretty much closed doors to research collaboration and I discovered in my twenties that a file was being kept on me by the public service union in Canada and that people hated me to the extent that one acquaintance (who unfortunately ended his life over unrelated issues) told me he overheard a conversation that only "over our dead bodies" would any research done by me be acceptable to the authorities.

    If you consider that trivial then that's your problem. I closed the door on it all in my forties after banging my head against the brick wall of ostracism for quite some time; the AGW era was then underway and I was behind two different eight balls as a result. The previous attitudes had not changed but now there was a second "good reason" to enforce the blacklisting. And it's not just me, I know of several others who have gone through a similar process. Out of that attitude in general, globalist orthodoxy has emerged, in the public sector in general, it's a case of our way or the doorway, and the decisions about what standards must apply are not determined in the open, but behind closed doors and revealed to the public through changes in policy. Half of the modern policy set that most would identify as globalism is probably unpopular if not entirely unacceptable to a majority, but it has been imposed anyway, and then maintained through a pervasive policy of harassment of opponents.

    Both sides know what's going on, the only difference is whether they approve or disapprove.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,461 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Also the rather predictable response to this is always that I am "wallowing in self pity" which is far from the case, I am actually thankful that I wasn't absorbed into the borg, so to speak, and that I have some semblance of integrity left. I would make a terrible fascist or communist and would be first off to the camps no doubt.

    The main problem with the globalist agenda is that they mix reasonable propositions with unreasonable, and present the public with this stark choice: either take the whole thing, warts and all, or be labelled a fascist, racist, homophobic cretin. Instead of just saying what we should say to this proposition, a lot of people gulp nervously and say, well here now, I'm no fascist, racist or homophobe, where do I put my X?

    And if there aren't enough X's to add up, then just consult the dead, their votes are even easier to manipulate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Red handed!


    New Moon



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  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    People with public influence in the political and academic sphere (aside from the Taoiseach) generally get the change in perspective with climate matters long before the wider public do so they will be a marked shift away from dire predictions and more towards a softer approach to environmental concerns such as pollution and waste. It doesn't matter to these people that they are leaving the Earth science in tatters through the misuse of computer modelling, but ultimately the meteorology community will be left to drag the climate change modelling chain with them for some time to come.

    In the meantime, there is the actual topic of planetary climate to consider for the exciting topic it is is relation to the other Earth sciences of biology and geology. It is a lighthearted affair so while the climate change opponents/proponents will continue to mock each other, research goes on in the background where common sense is not considered a dirty word.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Seems that OP dont realize that today's 1Billion would be just about 40Million in 1800. :) Anyway, it's time to state the obvious: Media lying about climate and hurricanes :)




  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The computer generated hallucination that is climate change modelling is a subculture which attracts those who have not fully developed their reasoning and perceptive faculties-


    These students hardly are aware they are following a subculture because while energy and oil concerns are limited to pollution, the overreach into human control of the weather/temperatures by modelling dire outcomes is not just exceptionally weak but totally invalid.

    The meteorological community has a large hand in creating a hysterical atmosphere insofar as weather is a component of planetary climate as opposed to trying to make weather look like climate without reference to a moving Earth in a Sun-centred system.

    It is not easy to walk away from this debacle without clearly creating a stable ground for genuine climate research that does include computer modelling for interpretative purposes as opposed to predictive purposes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402



    "For nearly sixty years, I've been a cocky

    Of droughts and fires and floods I've lived through plenty

    This country's dust and mud have seen my tears and blood

    But it's nearly over now, and now I'm easy"


    The Australian surburbanites would have society believe the floods and droughts never happened before, but then again, they probably never heard this song-


    "City folks these days despise the cocky

    Say with subsidies and dole, we've had it easy

    But there's no drought or starving stock on a sewered suburban block

    But it's nearly over now, and now I'm easy"



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402



    Theorists have been doing this to solar system research for the last 250+ years, so it is no surprise that misguided students are following suit with works of art.

    Genuine climate research is inspirational insofar as it expresses how all the components come together to make life possible on Earth and especially the human condition which cannot suffer extreme heat nor cold.

    From experience, the proponents of modelling monstrosities tend to walk away from the havoc they created and leave behind nothing but a train wreck. It happened before.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    They are more than likely shills pulling these stunts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402



    Humanity can influence the environment in terms of pollution, waste and an abysmal use of planetary resources, however, humanity cannot by any action or inaction can control the planet's climate.

    The role of modellers, at least genuine modellers, is to simulate weather conditions across latitudes using different inclinations in order to appreciate what makes the Earth's climate so amenable to life on the surface, in the oceans and in the skies.



    The maximum inclination to the orbital plane is 90 degrees. The 'N' point in the above graphic will always turn parallel to the orbital planet (blue line) representative of the entire surface of the plane. The closer to the orbital plane, the larger the Arctic/Antartic circles and therefore the greater variations in atmospheric, oceanic and surface conditions across an orbital circuit while the further removed, like Jupiter, the more benign the conditions.


    The climate change modelling community, as a subculture, are pushing hard with dire predictions presently based on their non-dynamical assertions whereas a more balanced approach allows genuine modellers demonstrates not only the limitations of human influence but opens up consideration on proper climate research.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3




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