Alcoholics Anonymous and Atheism - genuine advice and help needed
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26-09-2022 5:26pm#1
Hi there
Its taken me a few minutes to decide whether to post this anonymously - but i decided against that, so this is me. Im an atheist, and i am an Alcoholic. If you recognize my user name from around boards thats fine.
IN BRIEF: Iv known for some time that i have a problem with Drink, but i managed to stay off it for years. Unfortunately i had a serious bad run of luck with Covid, losing my routine, losing my ability to workout. And i started drinking again, and very quickly it spiraled. I reached a point where i had to admit its not a drink problem. Its that i am an alcoholic. I decided to TRY AA. And i got something out of the meetings. I felt some connection, and that this program might remind me in future, that no matter what happens; i must NOT drink. (sober 6 days as of now)
Unfortunately no sooner did i kinda get settled, that it struck me (rather starkly) that this program is entirely theistic. Some members refer to it as being a spiritual journey. While i acknowledge spirituality, as being separate from Religion, or theism. I can honestly say this program, and AA in general, feel more like Religion to yours truly. Granted there are some members who discuss God, or a 'higher power' in terms of it being the Universe (pantheistic in my opinion), or a person they love - or in fact humanity, etc etc etc. For me it sounds like Theism. Indeed, the steps themselves, frequently involve admitting certain truths about ones self to God/High-Power
I am having real problems folks. And i dont mean with drink (that too, of course). Im an Atheist. I find my Atheism is important to me. It is a part of who i am. To be frank, long ago, i was quite beside myself. This is many years ago, but i lost someone very dear to me. And while drinking, i contemplated taking my life. I didnt do it, because i reasoned that, THIS, reality, is all that there is. I am an Atheist, to my core. There is no life after death. Following my friend to the grave, would do nothing for him. It would simply remove me from life. In effect my Atheism saved me. [I share this experience simply to demonstrate the my Atheism, i just wanna be clear i am not suicidal, and never have been since that day many years ago] - I suffer from bouts of depression too, even when not drinking, but never since that moment have i considered shuffling off the mortal coil
So... back to the present....
Listening to stories of people seeking sobriety, and achieving success is overwhelming for me. I hear MY STORY WITH ALCOHOL, over and over again, in the rooms. And it gives me something. I think to myself... THIS IS WHAT I WANT. I want to go back to how i was before the covid, and get my sober life back.
Unfortunately many if not all of the stories involve God. Granted the language changes, and some define god differently. Higher Power is discussed quite a lot. Others less so. My reason for throwing this 'flare' out with you folks, relates to a conversation, i had with a member. Oddly enough, i did NOT meet this member in AA. I connected with him through an outreach program for those with substance abuse problems. As it turned out this person was in AA, and wanted to help me, and i gratefully accepted.
This conversation has ROCKED ME TO MY CORE - Without breaking the trust of AA Rooms, i will not divulge personal information - but the general gist is as follows
- Liam you need a higher power.
- I believe and give thanks to my higher power every day, i could NOT have done this without them
- You will NOT succeed unless you accept this power. You do not have control, he/she/they/it HAVE the power
- The higher power must be sought. It is the foundation of Success
Several interactions have occurred too with others
- I must be open minded (I am, atheists tend to be)
- There is fierce arrogance on some people (namely me- Of course! obviously someone claiming they are Atheistic is arrogant. Someone who has a personal relationship with the creator of the Universe, and receives his bespoke guidance daily. And interacts with them through prayer. thats not arrogant, no, perish the thought)
- I need that power, and must find it
Now i can only speak for myself. But My atheism is important to me. Dont get me wrong, i do not walk around giving people the bad news! When sober i am a very functional individual with dreams and aspirations, i am not a one trick atheist, who wants to constantly go on and on about it - I will discuss it with those who wish to debate me, and yes that can get tricky. But i am firm in my convictions, and one must be able to agree to disagree. And i am a respectful person. I respect peoples beliefs. I have always responded to discussion on this topic (in AA) with the words
- 'Look i respect you, and i respect your belief'
Unfortunately in this recent interaction - this was not sufficient
- 'ITS NOT A BELIEF LIAM, ITS A FACT - ITS NOT A BELIEF, I KNOW THERE IS A HIGH-POWER, IT SAVES ME DAILY'
This was over the phone, but i felt we were being hostile with one another, and i cant face that ATM. And the stark message, that its HIGHER POWER, or continued on/off struggle with Alcohol - terrified me. The fact this person is AA but also on the outreach program, also scared me half to death.
The Analogy
I feel that this is all rather intense, too intense for me now. I feel too that clashes may occur. I am not arrogant, or closed minded. I am simply an Atheist. Telling me to seek a higher power. To be frank you may as well tell me that invisible unicorns are the key to sobriety. I include this merely as an analogy, of hypothetical statements from an AA member, whom i will refer to as Hypothetical Joe - this person is made up for this post, and is not based on anyone.
- Joe, Alcoholic, 30 years sober
- [Joe discusses his drinking for a time]
- Joe explains he was on the verge of losing everything, and had already lost quite a bit
- Joe discovered AA
- Joe discovered his relationship with Invisible Unicorns. It had always been there.
- Joe wouldnt accept these Unicorns into his life. He refused to acknowledge there existence
- The unicorns were actually looking out for Joe, and by contrivances (related to their invisibility), they guided Joe back to AA
- Joe now welcomed the Unicorns into his life
- The Unicorns have given Joe's life new meaning,
- Joe can now ACTUALLY SENSE, AND SOMETIMES SEE the Unicorns acting around him
- Their presence Fills Joe with Confidence and he continues remain sober, a day at a time, with there help
I just cant make the leap that Hypothetical Joe has made. Some call it arrogance, some hubris, some closed mindedness. Some say that i will make the leap. Others that i will find them some how (the unicorns) - I cannot. It reminds me of Sam Harris's analogy of the friend in love with Angelina Jolie
Granted Harris was ridiculing Religion in this case. I want to be clear that in the case of the above Hypothetical Joe
- I am happy for JOE! I truly am
- I would never attempt to change Joe's mind
- Frankly i dont think Joe's mind would or could ever change
- Joe, as i imagine him hypothetically, is a wonderful person. Most in AA are
- But i cannot BE JOE - I cannot DO WHAT JOE DID.
I NEED ADVICE
Its a rather long post, and i thank you for reading this far, assuming anyone has. I need some advice
- Are there any true atheists who have Done AA and found Success - if there are please reply, and lets have an open chat
- If you prefer to contact me privately, please do so
- Post Anonymously if you wish - 100% i get it. I am honest, genuine and open. But i understand and respect anonymity
- I welcome ANY AND ALL OPINIONS from Atheists - 100% fire away at me what ever you wish to say
- I am 6 days sober, and i am trying hard. I am still going to meetings. I just dont think i can, for much longer. And it breaks my heart because these are WONDERFUL PEOPLE, one of them bought me a book, i have received so much love and support. Has anyone found away of sublimating the positives, from the negatives
Thanks in advance,
Sincerely and respectfully
Liam
Atheist
Alcoholic
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Comments
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EXTRA NOTE -i searched and found an old thread on AA and Atheism. I wished to start my own here, as i found a general discussion on the topic difficult. I felt i needed to post too - so, thanks :)
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Have you ever tried Lifering? They are non religious and a good alternative.
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I should have mentioned in the OP
- I knew there are more Secular versions of AA and other 12 step programs
- I live quite rural and it would be nearly impossible for me to get to these
- i think i need the face to face - that seems to be a key. I flirted with LifeRing live chats previously - but it felt empty, nameless - frankly it felt like a chat aplet for people with Addiction problems
- I feel the support from members, visibly moved by my story - its helping me
But its building up in side me. I have tried various avenues
- Reasoning my way with Logic - I have sat down and imagined the situation on a basic level. These people think a higher power saved them. The act of believing is a Macguffin - just pretend
- If they believe god saved them - and god doesnt exist - if follows that something else saved them. They saved themselves
- The act of sitting with strangers and discussing the problems may be enough to keep me in check -
- Refuse when asked to do the steps - claim the meetings are enough (this is getting tricky as people have already begun making a point of highlighting the steps.. 'Liam when you start the steps and admit to God/HP you will feel such a release)
Anyway, sorry i should have stated but my OP is VERY LONG so
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Firstly, kudos for posting, it takes no small amount of bravery. Very little knowledge of AA or its alternatives but have had a few people very close to me with serious drink problems who didn't deal with them and ended up badly. Just a thought, but have you tried contacting an addiction counsellor? They may be more likely to approach the problem from a more scientifically informed point of view. I do have a friend in the states who's not religious and been attending AA for years and seems to get on ok with them, probably comes down to the group to some degree. I suspect, and it is no more than a guess based on others that I've met, that some alcoholics become addicted to religion in place of booze. Anyway, very best of luck with it going forward.
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I wish you well with your struggles Liam. I am cheering for you.
'Are there any true atheists who have Done AA and found Success - if there are please reply, and lets have an open chat
Shaun Ryder (pop singer) used his dog as his 'higher power' since he was an atheist and an animal lover. Can you do something like that - use a focus of deep affection and place it 'higher' in an act of emotional transference?
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Hey. Yea i have spoken to several addiction Councillors in the past. I have had limited success, i suspect the counselling may have helped me gain nearly 3 years sobriety. The problem is that it fell apart like a cheap suit as they say. TBH i am kinda still in shock as to the speed at which everything came crumbling down. I have reached out for support and i spoke to someone tonight about it. I need the assistance. I am trying very hard - i see the value in AA, and i reiterate - these people are wonderful - I take my hat off to them. They CARE about this program and want it to succeed for us. for ALL of us. They are a credit to themselves.
The religious/theistic component - its a problem for me. I cannot reconcile it with my view of the universe, and reality. And i do not consider myself close-minded. I am open, and tolerant. I want to keep going. But again. The Steps, the traditions - they just dont click for me, given my position on theism. I have heard a number of people discuss the steps, and their importance. Tonight i did an online meeting, and someone addressed this. Saying that doing AA meetings alone, was insufficient. They needed the program, and the steps.
Iv been reading the 12 step program for secular AA and it helps me to see it. To see that they have toned it down, which they have.
I had a wonderful meeting today. It was the phone call after it that really soured me. I wish i had not taken it, but i am following a mantra of taking any help i can get with open arms. The fact the caller was AA, was initially a source of optimism for me. Then, the disagreement, and the attitude of 'my way or the high way' - that stung - hard
Again i am open to discussing with anyone who has thoughts on this
Thanks pal, like i said im still at it so. Really appreciate the support
Im still going, im not going to give up so. Just have to try and take what i can get
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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I think depending on who you come across will depend on how they interpret it but usually the rule of thumb is that the higher power can be anything (as long as it's not you).
I've met plenty of atheists in AA who all say the same thing as the people who believe in God, as long as you accept you can't control everything yourself and you're willing to give up that control and hand it over, it doesn't really matter what it is. It's just the act of surrendering that's important, realising you can't do it yourself.
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I would surmise that over the years on this forum I have put myself somewhere in the top tier of atheists who are are "strident" and "vocal". I have also been highly active in atheism publicly over the years across multiple countries, meeting 100s of atheists, helping run atheist conventions in multiple countries and was one of the handful of original founding members of Atheist Ireland. I have also been in quite a number of debates on and off line where I expressed by genuine concerns with, and doubts about, AA specifically.
So in that context of not being someone who would sell theism or anything to do with theism lightly or without reason..... I would say that I have met, and on some rather rare occasions have even been, atheists who use the tools of theism to their personal and emotional and spiritual benefit. "Atheists who pray" for example are a real thing.
Now while they are praying they are not doing so under any impression that there is a mind on the other end of the imaginary phone line. Some of them are on the extreme end of the Dawkins scale of disbelief and positively believe there is absolutely no mind on the other end of the phone line.
But the act of pausing to reflect with another mind..... or the act of expressing gratitude to a mind other than our own even if said mind is imaginary.... or the act of visualising our goals and desires in the form of appeals to a mind other than our own to grant us such requests.... still have a genuine effect on us in terms of motivation and discipline and focus. I do not have to believe there is a god to close my mind and say something like "please god, let me do well when I stand up to give that talk in front of 500 people tomorrow" and benefit from having done so.
We humans appear to have minds that are constantly either in relationships with other minds, or run "virtual machines" of other minds to be in relationship with. As Sam Harris would point out, since you referenced him, we are even in near endless constant discourse with ourselves. So some of the tools of theism like prayer would appear to have the capability in some people to leverage that reality to their benefit without actually having to believe any of the unsubstantiated nonsense theists espouse.
On a slightly related note, the above also influenced how I studied and learned in school and college. I found that if I merely took down notes, read the notes, memorized them, and read books and tried to learn what was in the books..... I learned quite badly. The moment I started to learn well was I imagined a non existent person, or room full of people.... and I re-wrote all the books and notes in my own words as if I was preparing a lecture to teach them the material. As above, my putting my mind specifically in relation to other minds (minds that patently did not exist), leveraged my own brain in ways that greatly benefitted me and my grades and my effectiveness. It forced an understanding of the material on me that until that moment was inaccessible to me entirely. The distinction here is between believing those imaginary students actually existed.... and functionally allowing myself to act AS IF I believed they existed.
All this is a long winded way of my saying that while I understand that the theistic nature of AA might grate with your self identity as an atheist.... it does not have to be so. If it is genuinely helping you... then you can happily play with the baby and ignore but keep the bath water. And as such I have indeed known atheists who have had positive and transformative experiences in their life using things like prayer and yes AA. So the only acid test here worthy of anything is deciding for yourself if it is genuinely helping you, or not.
If it is, then nothing else really matters and finding benefit in a theistic structure is not... and should not feel like it is.... in conflict with your atheism. It is also not in conflict with using AA as your main outlet for support while you explore in parallel any and all other avenues to replace it in the long term.
There is a user around Boards who has posted a lot about things that helped him with anxiety and addiction and have helped others. Everything from meditation with a lot of references to Sam Harris..... to extreme self discipline with a lot of references to Jokko Willink..... to mental health podcasts with a lot of references to Blindboy and the "Two Norries" for example (the latter of which I have been binge consuming myself and I would say you could do worse than binge them too)..... to martial arts with a lot of emphasis on directly hands on forms like Jujitsu and archery. His posts show there is no end of things that will potentially help deal with addictions. The trick, easier said than done alas, is to try them all until you find the one, or combination, that works for you.
The one over arching message I get from that users posts however is that one of the worst ways to deal with an addiction is to simply remove the addiction from your life and do nothing else. Because that is to hold back the tide with a flimsy dam. Rather the addiction has to be replaced with things that inspire our focus and our attention and have meaning for us. Ideally if possible they would also be things that occur during the time of, and hopefully physically far from, the triggers that send us down the path the addiction wants to bring us. If for example being alone on a Friday night is your time to binge.... then do your upmost to be doing something like rolling around sweating on a jujitsu mat trying to stop someone chocking you to death during those moments. Or.... be sitting in an AA meeting or somewhere with your sponsor. Or whatever else you find works for you.
If it is getting extreme for you there are also clinics and locations you can check yourself into for some weeks to help you get back on the path upfront so that when you are back walking that path at home you are on a firmer ground. Again I have less knowledge about those than others but the Two Norries Podcast if you binge listen to it should mention quite a few, including a lot of email and social media contact details you could reach out to.
After all that, never lose sight too of the fact that you did control the addiction for a number of years. Yes you have stumbled and fallen. But we all do. And it is very human of us to feel defeated by losing one small battle in a war we have been winning for years. One stumble and we think of ourselves as someone who just can not do it. Forgetting that we HAVE been doing it, rather effectively, for years.
If you have been eating with a knife and fork for years and tomorrow you drop the fork on the ground you do not think "Man I just can not eat like everyone else" do you? You just pick up the fork confident in the knowledge that was an aberration, and you can perfectly well continue on using the fork as you always have. There is no loss of confidence or self belief there usually. But with something like an addiction we can forget to treat it just like that fork. Sometimes we drop it. We pick it up knowing we still know damn well how to use it and continue to do so. You have shown yourself capable of keeping on top of your addiction for years. You more than likely can do so again.
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AA member here clean and sober nearly 14 years who follows no religion or God's so to speak. God to me is Good Orderly Direction. My higher power would be the group itself.
Post edited by byrnem31 on0 -
There's an atheist meeting in Molesworth Street - I think every Sunday at 12. You might be able to find a sponsor there or someone that could help you with this aspect of the programme.
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@liamtech I had a similar issue when attending AA, I really struggled with the "God-talk". It all sounded so hollow and something I had rejected. While I was more agnostic than atheist, I certainly wasn't Christian, but I needed to get sober and AA was the most accessible avenue. I was determined not to get brainwashed into the "AA cult" (that's how it felt at the time), so I decided to read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. In that I got a better understanding of the theory of evolution and that is what became my higher power.
Through the process of evolution, the nature of the brain/mind was such that, if I did the things in the 12 steps such as:
- admit I had a drinking problem
- did an inventory of my life to see where I had wronged others
- made an intention to make amends
- carried out those amends
- practiced meditation (Buddhist in my case)
this would have an affect on my psychology which would help me to quit drinking.
I personally don't go to AA any more because I found Buddhist meditation to be more beneficial in the long-term, but the more practical steps in the 12-steps are very powerful in terms of the effect they can have on a persons psychology and trauma - they are not exclusive to Christainity or the 12 steps.
I also think AA was massively beneficial to me, when I was going.
I published a book last December which, in no small way, covers my own struggle with those concepts and the conclusions I came to. It's available free to download on Amazon. If you'd be interested in reading it you can DM me and I'll send you a link. Or, if you just need someone to chat to.
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Here are some of my favorite comics/alcoholics debating aa.
From ~23:00
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