Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

hans aus dtschl · 26-09-2022 4:33pm

It's a spurious argument that seems to get brought up time and time again about greenways and other sustainable transport infrastructure - "they bring anti-social behaviour". For a town that seems to feature regularly on viral videos of gangs of kids running amok, a greenway isn't the most likely source of problems.

The worst thing is if you'd ever been in the area at school pick-up and drop-off times, you'd know that by far one of the bigger problems is that it's being swamped by parents driving kids to/from school. Carrigaline is absolutely awful for traffic. An enormous percentage of people commute by single-occupant car, one of the highest in the country I believe. With respect to people living in Carrigaline, it's not a very nice place and desperately needs things like the proposed greenway and TPREP.

whisky_galore · 26-09-2022 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667481#Comment_119667481

Carrigaline is rapidly descending into 'kip' status.

Former Former Former · 26-09-2022 7:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667376#Comment_119667376

Not really, no. Don't get many cyclists or kids walking to school at 1am like.

If the "anti social behaviour" argument is a red herring, then the "passive surveillance" line is just as bad.

26-09-2022 7:55pm

https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/2022/09/26/e33k-spend-agreed-to-turn-streamstown-station-into-cafe/

...

breezy1985 · 26-09-2022 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668281#Comment_119668281

Sounds lovely but 33k on furniture and refrigeration sounds like a journalistic fk up. I can see the barstool experts crying about 33k for a few fridges.

I that number includes the fitting of a HACCP compliant kitchen and H&S work.

Mr.CoolGuy · 26-09-2022 8:34pm

https://www.carrigdhoun.com/post/main-street-overhaul-cycle-link-approved-for-carrigaline?fbclid=IwAR2U2ewku1fWQv8goUwSywxbDPo1jbTnor7MlmmTJJND4WLLW21QaD8UZS4

The NIMBYs didn't get their way! Also, it's always funny seeing people say Carrigaline has an anti-social problem. It's probably the quietest town of its size in the country. One or two viral videos in 5 years does not a kip make

breezy1985 · 26-09-2022 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668415#Comment_119668415

Never knew what size it was till I checked now. 15k is big in Ireland and a town that size will have nice, rough and everything in between.

hans aus dtschl · 27-09-2022 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668415#Comment_119668415

I don't particularly care about the anti-social viral videos, I care more about the wall-to-wall traffic and ugly main street tbh. Where I'm from probably has far more anti-social "problems" than Carrigaline I'd say.

Midleton used to be pretty grim too, but it has really improved in recent years: maybe it shows what a difference a public realm project can make!

Each to their own, but I think the Council's own term was "car dominated" and I fully agree with that.

Edit: for clarity, I didn't bring up anti-social behaviour, the locals did, because they wanted to retain the undeveloped land beside their property. And in a way I understand their fears: people passing near their houses, where once they had only trees and bushes. But if you can't have greenways then you can't have parks or playgrounds either. The challenge is to design and manage it properly. Anti-social behaviour isn't stopped by putting a fence up.

hans aus dtschl · 27-09-2022 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668131#Comment_119668131

At 1am, you will potentially get people walking and cycling home from working at pubs and restaurants etc. That would be the hope.

Anti Social Behaviour isn't caused by a greenway. The argument that we shouldn't have a greenway because of anti-social behaviour is like saying we can't have roads or parks or wooded areas because of anti-social behaviour. The challenge around discouraging anti-social behaviour in an area is basically to make it open and brightly-lit and observable, and get more pedestrians through it.

Passive surveillance doesn't mean everyone is watching it all the time. It means that the area is unattractive to anti-social behaviour because it's not secluded, a cul-de-sac, or untended/uncared for. The challenge isn't to "not have it" rather the challenge is to design it right.

Former Former Former · 28-09-2022 10:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670665#Comment_119670665

Anti Social Behaviour isn't caused by a greenway.

It's not - but equally, renaming a laneway as a 'greenway' won't magically prevent anti-social behaviour.

I know it's easy to dismiss local concerns as NIMBYism but if this exact location was a previous site of problems, why would it be any different this time around? The level of passive surveillance will be no greater than it was before, and late at night, that will be zero.

Looks like the locals are going to find out anyway, the council approved the plan on Monday.

Pete_Cavan · 28-09-2022 2:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675153#Comment_119675153

Would active surveillance in the form of CCTV cameras not address the issues, discourage anti-social behavour and allow some recourse should it happen (not that they'd be constantly be constantly monitored, only footage reviewed when necessary - this may not meet the acutal definitition of active surveillance but you know what I mean)?

Seth Brundle · 28-09-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119676298#Comment_119676298

CCTV isn't required. The locals were claiming that twenty years or more there was anti-social behaviour on the old disused railway line (from the Examiner article)...

Part of the proposed route was the focus of sustained anti-social behaviour in the late 1990s and early 2000s, with rowdy boozy parties at weekends.

Mr O’Connor said residents had to deal with rubbish and debris being regularly thrown into their gardens, and a tree on the route was torched. The council eventually moved to fence off the area in 2007.

What they were giving out about was behaviour on a disused railway line and presumably was quiet for the most part. This will not be the same and will have people travelling it day and night.

I would put money on it that the anti social behaviour is simply a ruse because the council weren't listening to the pleadings for car space, etc to be left untouched. Several estates didn't get their knickers in a twist over a bit of knacker drinking that happened a few decades ago (plus those doing the drinking didn't travel all the way from Dublin or Galway to be there - it was their feckin kids!).

hans aus dtschl · 28-09-2022 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675153#Comment_119675153

But it wasn't a laneway before, that's the point: it was secluded wasteland. The greenway would arguably be less attractive to anti-social behaviour than even what's there right now. And I don't believe there's any known issues on the greenway from Carrigaline to Crosshaven, are there? I certainly haven't heard of any. So why should a greenway be associated with anti-social behaviour? Roads generally aren't!

I don't think having "fear of anti-social behaviour" is unreasonable, but these are generally unfounded fears which crop up every time sustainable transport is suggested. Much in the same way as "environmental" concerns crop up when roads are proposed (Kerry slug, etc). It absolutely IS NIMBYism. Are people's fears real: possibly yes. Is the fear rational: probably no.

Pete_Cavan · 28-09-2022 2:56pm

In other news, Waterford and Tip CoCos have a consultation on a potential route for a Carrick-on-Suir to Kilmeaden Greenway;

https://consultations.tipperarycoco.ie/consultations/carrick-on-suir-to-kilmeaden-greenway

With this, Waterford would truly be the Greenway capital of Ireland, with the Dungarvin Greenway already in place, New Ross Greenway being prepared plus the potential for the former South Wexford rail line. There is already a link from COS to Clonmel.

There is no obvious route apart from along the river but that might be difficult for ownership and ecological reasons. It would be great if it the owners of Curraghmore House would facilitate part it through their lands, that would allow a good chunk of the route be done with one willing landowner and take in an attraction on the way.

hans aus dtschl · 28-09-2022 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119676298#Comment_119676298

There was a basketball court and a play ground near me. Both were magnets for anti-social behaviour at night. Both simply had bright lights installed, and hey presto the anti-social behaviour was gone.

(Thankfully nobody ever started campaigning against the basketball court or playground)

Pete_Cavan · 28-09-2022 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119676415#Comment_119676415

I have no doubt that the same people so concerned about anti-social behavour will have some issue with CCTV cameras - thats why you propose it to them! CCTV cameras are a common solution for anti-social behavour. They either accept it as a solution or they admit the risk of anti-social behavour isnt that high, either way you take the wind out of their sails.

breezy1985 · 28-09-2022 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119676483#Comment_119676483

It's the school and church near me because they have shelter. Thomond Park gets a fair bit too so let's hope no one gets any "greenway" ideas about those.

roc77 · 01-10-2022 11:56am

New Athlone Bridge this morning.

veryangryman · 01-10-2022 10:15pm

Bridge is in such a ridiculous spot 50m from existing bridge. Badly planned

whisky_galore · 03-10-2022 9:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119676516#Comment_119676516

CCTV is useless without lighting, people cover their faces with hoodies and operate in the dark/dusk.

Guards won't or are slow slow to respond to cases and when they do, it's teen/child scrotes who are of course untouchable.

Seth Brundle · 03-10-2022 9:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690689#Comment_119690689

The existing bridge is a horrible place, even to walk. The streets leading to and from it are horrible places, even to walk. There is such dominance by vehicular traffic that it would not suit anyone who is not a confident experienced cyclist. The greenway is there to enable people to walk and cycle away from cars but given that users want to visit Athlone, it needs to be central.

So where should the bridge have gone?

Sam Russell · 03-10-2022 11:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694827#Comment_119694827

They could of course start to reform the approach route to the bridge and make it much more friendly for cyclist/pedestrian traffic.

Seth Brundle · 03-10-2022 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695136#Comment_119695136

To the 1844 road bridge? You know how retailers and others would start moaning about loss of sales because cars can't drive past them anymore because of cycle lanes or whatever. As big a project it is, the new greenway bridge has been a lot easier to put in place compared to what would be involved in reforming the current road layout

veryangryman · 03-10-2022 12:11pm

Under the railway bridge and make it swingable for boat traffic like portumna bridge. Done. Would have saved the zigzag route the current job is from dunnes to the radisson

If you want to cry too expensive then note the current route required a bridge at the hospital