Russia - threadbanned users in OP

rogber · 30-09-2022 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685839#Comment_119685839

I guess we'll see what the NATO speech contains. I'd be surprised, but you never know....

Gregor Samsa · 30-09-2022 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685874#Comment_119685874

He's not going to be taking that line. Ukraine is Ukraine is Ukraine. They're not going to concede an inch of land. (Not under current circumstances anyway)

He's doing this as a direct response to Putin's actions today. An act of defiance, to show that Ukraine will make it's own way in the world, and that it is completely ignoring the sham attempt to annex part of it's sovereign territory.

Whether NATO file the application under "pending", due to them not controlling their own borders currently, or whether NATO have pre-agreed some kind of process for them is the only open question I can see at the moment.

zv2 · 30-09-2022 5:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685836#Comment_119685836

It's on the Wall Street Journal etc. Leaves are still green here too...

Brussels Sprout · 30-09-2022 5:12pm

Putin on stage now at that concert for more demented nonsense:

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1575880344242647040

Gregor Samsa · 30-09-2022 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685882#Comment_119685882

It isn't a rule, as such. There's no membership criteria checklist, other than unanimous approval by the other members, but there is general principles that are agreed as "minimum requirements", such as:

Uphold democracy, including tolerance for diversity;
Be progressing toward a market economy;
Have their military forces under firm civilian control;
Be good neighbors and respect the sovereignty of other nations; and
Work toward interoperability with NATO forces.

The issue for Ukraine is that they currently have Russia occupying and controlling a good percentage of their territory. If they were to join NATO, the fact that Russia are fighting them on Ukrainian soil would immediately trigger Article 5, the mutual defense agreement. So the rest of NATO would be obliged to come directly to defend Ukraine, which would obviously put them in direct conflict with Russia.

That seems to be something that existing NATO members haven't been ready to commit to up until now. So by extension, they're very unlikely to get NATO membership while they're fighting Russia on Ukrainian soil. Unless NATO decide that they're willing to go toe-to-toe with Russia, or they decide that somehow the current front lines don't count.

Francie Barrett · 30-09-2022 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685895#Comment_119685895

Stolenberg's speech came off as damage control.

Yes, NATO will support Ukraine, but throwing cold water on the notion that it could quickly join NATO.

Podge_irl · 30-09-2022 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685940#Comment_119685940

Yes, that is a good summary. Essentially the reasons they won't be accepted now are similar (though not exactly the same) as before the invasion. Certainly their interoperability has increased but the immediate issue with A5 has changed the scale completely.

But its important to point out that there is no "fudge" to get accepted by pretending there is no territorial dispute. You can't get in on a technicality.

Brussels Sprout · 30-09-2022 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685950#Comment_119685950

Glad to see him tell a couple of those reporters that they wouldn't be advising Ukraine not to attack Russia on the "annexed territories".

pcardin · 30-09-2022 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685960#Comment_119685960

Ze Zerman reporters....rats, will sell out anyone at any time

Larbre34 · 30-09-2022 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685950#Comment_119685950

Not for him to say.

Its for the Nations of the North Atlantic Council to decide. He's only the secretary.

Circumstances will dictate, as they always have and always will.

EltonJohn69 · 30-09-2022 5:33pm

Very strange….. a more powerful brain is required to decipher this interaction/war crime huddle

GM228 · 30-09-2022 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685882#Comment_119685882

It's covered under the 1995 Study on Enlargement which was issued following the 1994 "Brussels Declaration" and is the accepted criteria adopted by all member states.

Wes M. · 30-09-2022 5:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686002#Comment_119686002

Those 4 guys are just happy the boss is pleased with them. For now....

cnocbui · 30-09-2022 5:40pm

"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685816#Comment_119685816

"Which glorifies the Wagner Group"... what's left of them.

storker · 30-09-2022 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685950#Comment_119685950

It seemed to me to be less damage control and more a pooh-poohing of Putin's annexation stunt. As far as NATO is concerned, it's business as usual.

Putin needs to learn that you can't just ignore a pooh-pooh.

https://youtu.be/QeF1JO7Ki8E?t=29

eire4 · 30-09-2022 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685839#Comment_119685839

Thats what I was thinking. I hope your right. Would be a good response to this annexation stunt by the Russians IMHO.

Dufflecoat Fanny · 30-09-2022 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686002#Comment_119686002

State of Putin's cheeks he looks like he went to Mickey Rourke's plastic surgeon

cnocbui · 30-09-2022 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685839#Comment_119685839

Something may have been going on behind the scenes. There have been what I took as hints on a telegram channel about some important stuff in the pipeline, leaving aside NS1&2.

Podge_irl · 30-09-2022 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686019#Comment_119686019

Decisions on enlargement will be for NATO itself. Enlargement will occur through a gradual, deliberate, and transparent process, encompassing dialogue with all interested parties. There is no fixed or rigid list of criteria for inviting new member states to join the Alliance. Enlargement will be decided on a case-by-case basis and some nations may attain membership before others. New members should not be admitted or excluded on the basis of belonging to some group or category. Ultimately, Allies will decide by consensus whether to invite each new member to join according to their judgment of whether doing so will contribute to security and stability in the North Atlantic area at the time such a decision is to be made. NATO enlargement would proceed in accordance with the provisions of the various OSCE documents which confirm the sovereign right of each state to freely seek its own security arrangements, to belong or not to belong to international organisations, including treaties of alliance. No country outside the Alliance should be given a veto or droit de regard over the process and decisions.

Bearing in mind that there is no fixed or rigid list of criteria for inviting new members to join the Alliance, possible new member states will, nevertheless, be expected to :

Accept the Documents which provide the basis for the existing policies of the Alliance. 1
Apply NATO security rules and procedures;
Participate, as appropriate, in the exchange of Allied intelligence, which is based entirely on national contributions;
Contribute to Alliance budgets, based on budget shares to be agreed;
Provide qualified personnel to serve on the International Military Staff and in the Integrated Military Structure if and as appropriate;
Be prepared to nominate qualified candidates to serve on the International Staff and in NATO agencies;
Establish an appropriate national military representation at SHAPE/SACLANT;
Establish a permanent representation at NATO HQ;
Undertake to participate fully in the Alliance consultation and decision-making process on political and security issues of concern to the Alliance;
Commit themselves to good faith efforts to build consensus within the Alliance on all issues, since consensus is the basis of Alliance cohesion and decision-making;
Be firmly committed to principles, objectives and undertakings included in the Partnership for Peace Framework Document;
Accept NATO as a community of like-minded nations joined together for collective defence and the preservation of peace and security, with each nation contributing to the security and defence from which all member nations benefit;
Conform to basic principles embodied in the Washington Treaty: democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law;

I can't see anything to do with territorial disputes here. It is categorically not what is stopping Ukraine from joining NATO. Nor, in some hypothetical future where e.g. Ukraine and Russia were back to their Feb24 borders and the NATO members wanted Ukraine involved would it stop them.

faceman · 30-09-2022 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119685882#Comment_119685882

You’ll find it here. Section 6.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm

Boggles · 30-09-2022 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686002#Comment_119686002

You'd wonder do they have the combined intelligence to realise they have just became prime target number 1,2,3,4 in Ukraine and what they were essentially doing today was signing their inevitable death certs.

Literally cheer leading it. 😂

zv2 · 30-09-2022 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686059#Comment_119686059

I don't think the rules prevent anything. NATO can make an exception for Ukraine. If NATO makes the rules it can modify them. At any rate, I find it hard to see how Zelenskyy would make such a video without NATO consent. The message I would take - if there is one - is that they are telling Putnut that Ukraine can join NATO in an instant. Then we have not fly zones, NATO war machines in Ukraine etc. etc.

Dyr · 30-09-2022 6:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686110#Comment_119686110

Turkey and Hungary are not going accede to Ukraine joining NATO anytime soon, I doubt France or Germany will either given their previous stances on Ukraines future in the West.

Presumably this is looking for some sort of halfway house promise or just pissing off Putin.

Wes M. · 30-09-2022 6:07pm

I think I'll tune out of the war coverage for the day, the image of Moscovites celebrating in Red Square juxtaposed with images from the missile attack on a civilian convoy is just too depressing. Russians are making me ill right now, ignorance and subjugation are no excuses, at least for today...

30-09-2022 6:09pm

Two things really struck me during Putin's speech.

The first was the hatred in his heart for the west. He had a hateful, vengeful, bitter countenance. Something has happened to his mind since he was first elected. He was always nasty but maintained an air of professionalism and courtesy when speaking to journalists on foreign affairs. That is well gone now. At the end of the day he's human, and it's a very human urge to say to your enemy "if I go down I'm taking you with me".

The second was the mood and body language of his audience. I didn't see the same confidence and fervour in their faces. I saw fear, uncertainty and doubt. Many were probably thinking "this man could do anything". But history shows time and time again that acts of courageous self-sacrifice - i.e. a real willingness to assassinate a tyrant - are very, very rare and often fail.

Gatling · 30-09-2022 6:10pm

Tune in in 12 months time when a 2nd military operation is launched to secure more territory to protect Russia from another invasion.

cheese sandwich · 30-09-2022 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686183#Comment_119686183

A nation of rapists and murderers. Fascist scum.

Boggles · 30-09-2022 6:12pm

The applying for NATO video is for headlines in Moscow.

Glorious Russia reunited with its homeland.

Ukraine applies for membership of NATO

Hobgoblin11 · 30-09-2022 6:13pm

NATO Secretary General says Ukraine has the right to "re-take" Ukrainian territories occupied by Russia. Adds that we should not accept "nuclear blackmailing" and that a nuclear war cannot be won and that must be clearly conveyed to Russia

https://twitter.com/RikardJozwiak/status/1575881264845885440

the word of Jens , amen

jimwallace197 · 30-09-2022 6:15pm

I think the situation and special operation has come to a cross roads now. Russia will claim these four regions as rightfully theirs after the election results. And will feel correct in using tactical nukes if Ukraine tries to take them back or the West.

I agree with some other posters who say this is the most unstable & dangerous time now. It all depends on how quickly or easily Putin can order a Nuclear strike, I understand theres a chain of command currently where it'll have to be signed off from a number of individuals. Who these individuals are & whether they would sign off on it remains to be seen. Putin is highly likely to use a tactical nuke now if Ukraine attempt to retake these regions because if he doesnt, he's been shown to be bluffing all along & will lose face at home & possibly his position or maybe even life.

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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