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Budget 2023

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,008 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Jaysus lads we are tiny island, some of it isn't even ours.

    The idea that we have to centralise everything like we are a province in China is the root cause to a lot of the problems we are facing now.

    It's an absolute bonkers idea, the pandemic has proved it once and for all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,488 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Not sure anyone wants to centralise everything, just acknowledge that it's a small country with one city of international scale, and operate as such. Denmark does this well and nobody is begrudging tens of billions being spend on Copenhagen metro and other projects because its in their interest to have their only large city thrive and compete for inward investment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,008 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Denmark has effective regional governance, we certainly do not.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No one is talking about centralising everything.

    People should be living in villages though, not in one off housing down the countryside unless they are farmers. Somehow rural dwellers are simultaneously complaining about services shutting down and planning rules that restrict where they can build. If you have one off housing many km from a village people will drive to the slightly larger town or amenity as they are driving far anyway. You need to concentrate people to some degree to have any semblance of rural living. The UK does this actually quite well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,008 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I wasn't actually thinking about villages, more towns and regions.

    The villages were long killed off, the recession and urban sprawl finished them.



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  • I only bought a car recently, used to take the bus for work til 2 days ago. Public transport is not reliable enough for work, simple as that. From years of experience I can’t remember a time a bus wasn’t late. I’ve been upwards of 40 mins late for work BECAUSE of a bus running late.

    Also, I work in a town, but the last bus back to my town is 8:30pm. My job requires me to work til usually 11pm. That issue doesn’t just affect me it affects anyone, who lives in an area serviced by the route (Bus Eireann 2 & Wexford Bus 740) coming from Wexford Town or on the route as I said, who finishes work later in the evening. Supermarkets, bar staff, restaurant and hotels etc. public transport, again from personal experience, outside of the major cities (Dublin, Waterford, etc) is shocking.

    And yea grand to cycle in reasonable weather, but in the bitter winter and pissing rain or heavy wind it’s just not practical or safe to cycle if you need to travel a distance, especially again if you’re coming home at night.

    What may be (in some cases) a practical way to reduce needless emissions is carpooling, with people you work with or who commute in a similar direction to you if you’re on at least somewhat the same schedule & they’re on your way to work normally or vice versa.

    For most people the fact is giving up the car to take a bus or train is impractical and likely to cause them to be quite late.

    And besides that you’re heavily restricting not only the hours you can work, but you’ll be most likely arriving late fairly often and may have to have weird availability due to different timetables for weekends and public holidays. You’re also restricted to work on the bus route and if you have start and finish times outside the timetable (the next bus on the aforementioned Bus Eireann 2 from Wexford after 8:30 is 1:30am..). I’ve had to leave a job and turn down some really good offers cos I didn’t have a car before.

    If the government want people to use public transport they need to put in place a way to ensure more consistent services and more frequent services that correspond with an actual real life work day, not just the classic 9-5.

    Not that you’d be on time for one of those much, either depending where you’re working and getting the bus from.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Spot on, Ive to be in work for 9am and live 23km away. The closest bus stop to my work place is 15min walk.

    First bus that leaves where I live is 9.30am. Next services are 10.55am, 1.30pm, 2.55pm and 6.55pm.

    Bull$hit service. Only suits OAPs with free travel passes, or local teenagers going into town on a jolly during school breaks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    You really haven't travelled much beyond the M50, have you?

    The bulk of the N80 is totally unsuitable for cycling, as are many roads of Nxx and Rxxx standards right across Ireland.





  • They’re shocking. But it brings my piss to a boil when the assumption is only people in the shticks can’t avail of buses. The fact is even in urban areas, like myself, they’re not practical. I’ve always wondered what the point of a timetable is if a bus will show up 40 mins after it’s scheduled.

    but then my driving instructor was telling me that a judge recently let someone off a speeding fine because they felt it was “unfair” to prosecute them, cos they only went 59 in a 50 zone.. I guess it’s unfair to blame the bus for showing up at 2pm for a 1:30pm service.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    The bus systems definitely need an overall and some real creative thinking. Villages and smallish towns have very little if any economic activity happening in them so that means getting to a larger town. In a family both parents usually work so that means two cars need to be parked at night so they can go their separate directions to work every day. There is no advantage to living in the actual village or small town when the bus service assumes everyone works a 9-5 job and you need space to park two cars. It was different years ago when most families only had one person working so families easily managed one car or even none.

    I know loads of older people especially women who live in the village and never learned to drive, but in the younger generations it’s very, very unusual for someone not to be able to drive. The bus service out here has never been as frequent as it is now. So it’s not a case that it was taken away from a lack of use.

    There is talk of a greenway locally which I would love to see actually happen because it would give some people more options to get to work and some kids wouldn’t need to be driven to school.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    The GP visit card is one good benefit for those on low/middle income. That's if you can get an appointment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,488 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    When will it come into effect? Specifically the increase in the income tax higher rate cut off point and the gp visit card?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Income tax changes = 1st Jan



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,770 ✭✭✭jj880


    Exactly. Be ready to have it out with the bouncers on the front desk. Maybe if you say you cant breath you'll be let in. Probably be sent to AnE.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13 Listendernow


    How can you possibly say Ireland is not a high tax country when the 40% tax bracket starts at below 40k, and only got upped to that in the budget? Similarly, 52% of every euro you earn over around 70k or so last I checked goes to the government. 41% tax on ETFs, 33% CGT. At every step of the process the Irish government has their hand out for taxes and in substantially greater fashion that most other nations with few exceptions. Over time as well any / all tax-lean ways to use money are being targeted (looking at pensions). You would do very well to remember that taxes are a means for the government to generate revenue, yes, but they are also a disincentive. Taxing labour & investments to the degree that we do is short sighted. A friend of mine recently pushed his income into that threshold and what do you know, he was working extra hours to do so (second job as a lecturer) and he just gave up the ghost when he realised over half of it was going to the government. So now that's a position that is going unfilled and revenue that is not being generated. We also have no long term incentives that encourage people to hang on to their slice of a given business (long term cap gains), we're in fact the only place on earth that I know of that will actively come after you after 8 years to press the reset button on your compound interest.

    The only way in which we can be described as low tax is that those on lower incomes almost do not get taxed at all, except they do when they roll up to the shop to buy something, or to invest their money, or to do basically anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,936 ✭✭✭✭Quazzie


    You're friend is a bit of a simpleton. He'd rather have less money himself rather than pay what is a fair share of it in taxes. Hope he enjoys his low to medium income life.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Because the rate is not as important as the overall tax payment? Loads of countries don't have tax free allowances etc.

    At 40k, 70k and various other salary points you pay less tax in Ireland then in many other countries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Has been done to death in various threads. Across the income distribution Ireland is not a high tax country relative to peer European countries. We sit right about in the middle of things in terms of how labour is taxed.

    Every income decile is in effect cross subsidised by our corporation tax rate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You can't really. Mostly because of the GP visit card. Being massively abused by parents of kids, getting every sniffle and bruise checked out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13 Listendernow


    Your analysis of my friend is a bit simple, he would rather not exchange the hours for the money. I'm sure he will, it was his decision after all anyway.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,319 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...is this actually true, or is it just some of that internet bullsh1t!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭DataDude


    Do you have any links to this? Would be very surprised if those earning say €150k-€300k were not well above global norms in terms of effective income tax rates?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Ireland is not a high tax country, that is beyond debate.

    However, you are 100% correct that in the income tax system, the top rate starts at a crazy low entry point, 36,800.

    Understandably, this leads people to think that overall Ireland is high tax.


    Loads of earners pay none or very little income tax.

    My parents earn 50k approx, and pay approx. 8%-9%, that is savagely low income tax for the benefits they get.



    Our PRSI at 4% is very low.

    UK = 11% or is it 12%?

    Germany = 20%


    Property taxes are low, the LPT is 0.10%, that is very low.

    Many goods are exempt from VAT.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Dat's shockin, parents taking their sick children to the doctor, what will they think of next?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    There is a shortage of GP’s. Been flagged for quite awhile and will worsen as more GP’s retire. Retention of medical staff is a problem that is getting worse across all areas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    When does the tax change on upper bracket kick in.?


    Tks



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭DataDude


    I jokingly suggested a GP family member lately that at least 70% of GP visits must be a complete waste of time and resources.

    He laughed and said ‘more like 90%’.

    Fully free services are a bad idea as they get abused. Some level of charges should be kept to try and stop the system becoming clogged with time wasters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    That's a grand road for cycling that you showed. If you're finding it difficult to share the road with other legal road users, maybe you need some extra driving lessons or something.

    Certainly, there are limitations on public transport. You correctly point out that it doesn't often work for people who work anti-social hours. It's great to see the three routes with 24 hour coverage now in Dublin and some Bus Eireann routes outside Dublin. We do need more of it, but it's a start.

    I didn't suggest that everyone must cycle or everyone should cycle. I did suggest, and the Census data confirms, that there are many people on our roads using private cars, mostly with four empty seats, for journeys that are easily walked or cycled, <4km. The biggest factor delaying public transport is private cars, often illegally using the bus lane.

    I'm not sure that your suggestion that private cars offer reliability timewise. One of my colleagues was tearing his hair out at taking 90 minutes to get into the city from Skerries by car, which would usually take him 60 minutes. We see road closures due to collisions on the M50 multiple times a week. It's funny how people are so quick to give a pass to private car transport on so many fantasies. Maybe they believed the misleading car adverts, with happy families and wide open roads. The reality is a bit different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Great, let's starting bringing in payments for all roads, and all parks, and all beaches, and all schools - wouldn't want those free services to get abused by time wasters, right?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭DataDude


    None of those things are extremely limited resources can have serious societal impacts when they get blocked-up. Terrible comparison.



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