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New Weekly Basic Income for Artists

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    The good artists will be rewarded. And as in all walks of life the good artists will be the hard working ones who will work at other things to get by in times of need. The 'artists' who turn their nose up at normal jobs are those who will never amount to anything because they avoid the life experiences (struggle) that tends to be the inspiration for great art.

    Next Man City manager: You lot may all be internationals and have won all the domestic honours there are to win under Pep. But as far as I'm concerned, the first thing you can do for me is to chuck all your medals and all your caps and all your pots and all your pans into the biggest **** dustbin you can find, because you've never won any of them fairly. You've done it all by bloody cheating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭Frostybrew


    This country is not generous at all to its artistic community. The EU average for expenditure on the arts in 2016 was 0.6% of GDP. Ireland had the lowest rate of expenditure at 0.1% of GDP, a paltry amount, especially compared to Germany's 2.7%; which was the highest rate. Funding has improved somewhat, but is still far below the average. Ironic considering how much we like to wax lyrical about our artistic heritage, which is probably why you held a belief that we were a generous country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,627 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I think there's a lot of people out there who would be happy to live in a Demolition Man style world where advertising jingles are the prevailing form of art.



  • Registered Users Posts: 348 ✭✭backwards_man


    I'll put my hand up and say I dont know what supports are out there for artists currently except for the tax free status (which I think is abused by certain multi millionaires) but I thought the idea of basic income experiments is that it would replace the other supports, if it were to be adapted after this trial. I agree that adding more money to the same recipiants would be not a good use of tax payers money but I dont think that is the aim of these schemes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭Frostybrew


    Lol, with 95% of mainstream music this is already the case, as artists are now signed on the basis of their ability to market various merchandise. Most present day chart music are really just elaborate advertising jingles to sell clothes and handbags.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Germany being an economic powerhouse, it's not exactly a fair comparison. How about a similar sized nation?

    I wouldn't either, but I've seen a few of the nationwide programs which talk a lot about artistic endeavours and the State funding/supports for them.

    As for whether it's a replacement or an extra, I doubt it would decrease the funding provided by other initiatives. My impression was that this was extra, and more concerned with the individual rather than the funding allocated to group schemes or regional supports.


    Why? Throughout most of human societal history, there was no financial supports for artists.. sure, many of them were wealthy, but many of the greatest artists came from poor or moderate backgrounds who supported themselves while also producing art. Being critical or interested in the addition of further supports (because the funding/supports already exist) doesn't mean that people want zero supports for artists. Just that we're going to be entering a rather serious recession, government spending is already very high, and I'd question whether the money spent on this could be directed at something that has a greater return for the average Irish person. TBH I doubt most Irish people get to see the majority of art that's already being produced in this country, which might be funded/supported by the State, so.. where's the return on investment? Or is it simply throwing money at the idea because the idea sounds good?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭Frostybrew


    Comparison is per capita so valid. It's reflection of how much, or in the case of Ireland how little, support there really is for the artistic community.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Maybe so, but how much support is really needed?

    The Arts Council's grant from the Irish Exchequer in 2022 is €130 million, which doesn't include the funding provided to NGOs related to the various arts groups (not going to spend much time digging). Now, I don't know about you, but I'd consider 130 million as being a rather decent amount to be provided. Probably you don't. Grand.

    Gonna leave this here, as I'm not terribly bothered by the topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Curse These Metal Hands


    Why wasn't it means tested though? I used to be involved in the arts myself, it is predominantly middle class. Why not means test it and funnel the funds to underprivileged artists.

    I also agree that its too much in comparison to the dole etc.

    The Arts Council is broken, have a look at their awardees over the years, it's the same people over and over again. The same with the covid grants for artists, you had the same artists scooping up multiple grants. One band achieved over 20k in grants and broke up a while later.

    Rte for example has the same musicians being given exposure over and over again. For example Mary Black and her entire family.

    The arts needs funding, and it is very important, but there are all kinds of agendas at play within the organisations distributing the funds.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    not being funny, but studying fine arts was probably your first problem there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,459 ✭✭✭✭zell12




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Did they say when their two other reports (is water wet and is the sun hot) would be available?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Apparently you can't put a price on happiness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,694 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    (and work harder)

    You left that bit out.

    Good to see for those who said artists would just be on the doss with the staggering huge sum €325 a week



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    There could be long term economic as well as artistic benefits to this if it was implemented in a thoughtful manner. J.K. Rowling was awarded a writers grant by the Scottish government, which helped her financially between writing the first Harry Potter book and it's publication. Imagine how much in tax has been taken from her writing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,139 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Why are artists special?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,694 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Because they're a small group, so it's easier to run a social experiment like this on them. If its successful, it'll be spread out. Allegedly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭amacca


    There should be a "bullshit artist: category

    I am confident I would qualify for payment under that.

    Im guessing they are a smaller group of people with precarious/low incomes is the main criteria used for their selection?

    Might get more of an economic output return from them if even a small percentage actually achieve something significant?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    You mean people who want to make a living out of a hobby?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,694 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    People devoting their lives to something they love?! The cheek of them!

    /sarc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭amacca


    A calling, a vocation, a deep seated primal need to create!

    Ffs collecting unusual rocks is a hobby or irritating your brother-in-law at family occasions...although the latter can be elevated to an artform by a skilled practitioner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Because it's hard to attribute a value to their efforts before their efforts are completed.

    Art is important and UBI in the grand scheme of things is very cheap.

    It's still a paltry income. You'd do much better pushing a button on a machine in a factory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Don't knock the people pushing buttons in a factory, their taxes pay for these artists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,459 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    It's a worthwhile scheme and should be expanded, as we have a centuries worldwide reputation for artistic flair. Who knows what talent could emerge



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    So do the taxes established artists pay on their earnings.





  • Innovation is a young persons game. This should only be available for a certain age range. Also it should list the artists that get it and make public the criteria for choosing them. No doubt there will be a diversity quota. And what now that AI can generate content itself, there is going to be way more content in future, meaning the value of artwork will fall because it will be every where and for free. Business innovation ideas would be better to invest in, IMO. As that could actually make a return for the tax payer.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The basic income for the arts is taxable income. If the artist supplements it with other income then they will be dragged into the tax net.

    Before the BIA these guys paid little to no tax and their small incomes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,694 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Innovation is a young persons game.

    What makes you say that?

    This should only be available for a certain age range.

    Why? And what would the cut off be?

    Van Gogh, started painting at 27.

    Edward Hopper, didn't sell his first painting til he was 31.

    Alan Rickman didn't get his first film role til he was in his 40's.

    Vera Wang didn't start designing til she was 40.

    Henry Ford was 45 when the Model T came out.

    Grandma Moses didn't start painting til she was 78.

    Brendan Gleeson was a school teacher up to his 30's.

    Also it should list the artists that get it and make public the criteria for choosing them.

    Why?

    No doubt there will be a diversity quota.

    You say that like it's a bad thing?

    And what now that AI can generate content itself, there is going to be way more content in future, meaning the value of artwork will fall because it will be every where and for free.

    An expression I've read recently is, "I didn't believe in a human soul, until I saw the art that AI produces. AI by it's very nature cannot be innovative, it can only copy and merge.

    Business innovation ideas would be better to invest in, IMO. As that could actually make a return for the tax payer.

    Another expression to bear in mind is, "Be wary of the man who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing".

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭amacca


    I think you are mistaken about the value of artwork falling because of a proliferation of AI generated art...

    There will still be critics, collecters and willy wavers, investors, money launderers etc etc elevating or coveting one piece or one artists work over another ....there will still be money sloshing round used to purchase/invest in artwork ...the mega rich will still pay premium prices for rarity, bragging rights...govts will still seek to preserve works considered to be of national importance etc

    If anything the fact its not done by AI and this can be proven might add value

    The first piece of original artwork produced by a true AI could be very valuable too

    I cant see flooding a market with shite or quality pieces of art dropping the value of traditional art unless the new pieces were completely indistinguishable

    Unless you are talking about digital art or a robotic arm that can do oil on canvas/watercolour with the exact techniques of a master or something original that has a techique of its own that isnt simply an algorithm

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    https://www.theredhandfiles.com/exciting-art-after-rehab/

    "Art is the agent best equipped to bring light to the world. That is its purpose. That is its promise." Nick Cave

    https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chat-gpt-what-do-you-think/

    This is great in terms of AI and art



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    I can tell you that we don't have a worldwide reputation for artistic flair. When you ask random people on the street which country has the best painters, writers, musicians Ireland would not get a look in.

    It's just something we tell ourselves.

    Next Man City manager: You lot may all be internationals and have won all the domestic honours there are to win under Pep. But as far as I'm concerned, the first thing you can do for me is to chuck all your medals and all your caps and all your pots and all your pans into the biggest **** dustbin you can find, because you've never won any of them fairly. You've done it all by bloody cheating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    You're most definitely wrong on writers. The winner of the Booker last year was Irish. They're one of four since the early 90s that was Irish. I can think of numerous alive Irish authors that are internationally acclaimed. That's ignoring things like playwright's etc. And historically we've got that same reputation. Given our relatively small population, we punch well above our weight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,503 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Strong disagree. We punch well above our weight when it comes to cultural output, especially music and writing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,836 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The report on the impact of the BIA after the first year of the scheme does not take into account the impact on the taxpayers who finance the scheme.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,694 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,836 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The report does not even mention the cost.

    By my calculations, the cost on the taxpayer is 34m+.

    Surely any Cost-Benefit analysis should consider the 34m+ costs?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    To put it in one sort of context, the Irish greyhound racing industry gets something like €20m a year in grants



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    edit - and it's worth pointing out that the 2000 people who qualified so far get the money over two years - so that's actually cheaper than the greyhound racing industry who get €19m a year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Why don't they get a real job and then use that to pay for their little hobby.

    Another group of scroungers we have to foot the bill for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,694 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    If you are actually from Galway, you should be ashamed. Where would your city be if it wasn't for Macnas and Druid putting it on the map?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,845 ✭✭✭buried


    I actively work in the indigenous Irish creative artwork field, I heard of this scheme back then but chose not to involve myself in it. Too much small print about the authorities collating your data as long as you signed up. No thanks lads, I'll keep my business to myself. The establishment had no part in the creation of my trade so I wasn't giving them a part now. Didn't need the income anyways.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    are you referring to my point about greyhound racing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    If I was referring to you I'd have quoted you.

    Hopefully that clears up any confusion.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a simple 'no' would have been fine!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Managing to get quite a few major companies who pay good salaries is what put it on the map, if they all upped sticks in the morning all that other nonsence wouldn't be much benefit to the city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,694 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    B*llocks. Medtronic, Boston Scientific…

    They're not exactly synonymous with Galway, are they? If the tax incentives that keep them there dried up, you know they'd be gone. The clue is in what you posted.

    Managing to get quite a few major companies

    Means that they're not native to Galway if you had to "get" them in. And I can guarantee you, the arts was absolutely used in one way or another to bring them in. It always is. Whether it's a show to relax the potential investors, or some musicians over a gala dinner. The arts and culture are always used in this country to woo investors in. It's not just tax breaks, or they'd all be based in tax havens elsewhere.

    Honestly, you should be ashamed of yourself. Your county (If you're from there, you didn't confirm) could be the strongest county in Ireland for arts and culture. At the moment it's far from it. Galway city doesn't even have specific rehearsal spaces available for theatre!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,769 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It wasn't a cost-benefit analysis; it was an impact assessment, aiming to answer questions like "What has the impact of this spending been? What has changed as a result of this programme?" Those are the kinds of question that you have to answer before you can do a cost-benefit analysis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    I'm not saying we don't have great writers. I'm saying if you ask the random population in most countries around the world which country is known for art and writers nobody will say Ireland.

    Next Man City manager: You lot may all be internationals and have won all the domestic honours there are to win under Pep. But as far as I'm concerned, the first thing you can do for me is to chuck all your medals and all your caps and all your pots and all your pans into the biggest **** dustbin you can find, because you've never won any of them fairly. You've done it all by bloody cheating.



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