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Inflation once again. What can Gov do about it?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    OK - what drives inflation?

    1. At the moment, oil prices are up which raised the price of gas, causing consumer prices to rise. Of cause, the cost of wind rose so renewable energy went up as well. [This is nonsense, but it did]. So some profiteering.
    2. The input cost of fertilizer shot up because of oil price rise, causing rise in dairy and tillage production costs. This was passed on. Tesco milk went from 75 c to 95 c - why, I do not know, but Tesco have been raising prices on some products by a minimum of 10% and up to 50% or more. Tesco do not tend to raise prices by a little - it is always by a lot. Now, Tesco do sell some products below cost.
    3. If the public service gets a pay rise, this has to be paid out of public funds, which are either borrowed or paid for by increased taxes. Interest rates are on the rise, so borrowed money will cost more, which will be paid for from taxes.
    4. If all pay rates outside the PS rise then these will be passed on, causing further price rises. This will causes further inflation, and demands for more pay rises, which will spiral. It will take years to bring the inflation back to near zero which we have had for quite a while.

    So what can be done?

    Well, will people accept a fall in living standards? Perhaps some will, but most will not.

    How about higher taxes? Not popular - but inevitable.

    How about a recession? That is likely if the above options are ignored, and something that no-one wants.

    Basically, solving inflation is like trying to hold back flood waters - unlikely to work for long.

    Words and phrases that have gone out of use in the last fifty years: thrift; economise; repair; save up for it; postpone purchase; do without; make and mend; plus quite a few more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,787 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The current 2021 and 2022 price inflation is not caused by wage inflation.

    There may be a small contribution due to wages rising in certain sectors, but the main causes do not included wages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Those words ring hollow in the face of massive profiteering, coupled with businesses avoiding paying equitable taxes.

    Neo feudalism is the goal, pushing people into being permanent subscribers. With all the uncertainty and vulnerability that comes with it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There is certainly some profiteering going on, where prices rise 'because of inflation'.

    An Post raised it price of the stamp way above inflation, but that contributes to inflation. Tolls on the motorways rise 'in line with inflation' not because of a rise in costs. Eir has signalled they will raise their prices at plus 3% and inflation - for ever - now that is profiteering.

    Inflation is generally given as the excuse for put up prices, whether it is true or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭323


    For the past two years, central banks printing presses hav been working on overdrive, the money supply in the United States has grown by more than 38 percent. Before, a rise like would take decades, but now it grew by 38 percent or 5.9 trillion dollars in two years.

    In the same period the EU’s money supply also increased. ECB printed  about 20 percent more, or 2.5 trillion euros into existance.

    OK, most of it went straight to the pockets of the folks who own the central banks.

    But the wee bit that trickled down is deluted/devalued so more of it is needed to buy the same product than two years ago. Will probably get worse before things stabilise. (If, as is looking more likely by the day the US dollar collapses completely inflation will get much, much worse, but that'd be another tread)

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Once inflation takes hold, like a fire, it is very difficult to dampen it down. Bringing in measures to compensate those effected with pay rises has the effect of prolonging it. Of course, the poor are the big losers, and they should be helped by targeted measures.

    Others must soak it up and economise and accept that a lower standard of life is the price they must pay for the moment, which is, of course, going to be unpopular.

    A populist party in opposition will obviously capitalise on this by promising to better their lot. I wonder which one will be first out of the traps in promising the fruits of the magic money tree.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    most central bank created money, over the last few years, has actually only remained with the global financial system, and in turn only truly inflated asset prices such as property and stock markets etc etc, this form of money was created under qe programs globally, the only true gainers of these programs have been primary asset owners. the likelihood of these outcomes was known within central banks before these qe programs were introduced, i.e. they knew very well what they were doing, and what would more than likely happen, and continued to expand these programs, when it became obvious that this money was indeed only inflating the value of assets!

    its always important to remember, asset ownership is heavily skewed in our societies, primarily by older generations, with most younger generations owning very little, if any at all, such is the case in ireland, most evident in relation to property, and with the expansion of such programs such as qe, asset ownership has become even more highly concentrated, which has resulted in an environment of rapidly rising wealth inequality.....

    its also important to realise, our current inflationary issues have very little to do with this rapid expansion of the central bank money supply, and is more to do with the serious supply and energy shocks we re now experiencing, which are directly related to covid and of course the war. the only real solution to this is further expansion of the so called public money supply, via methods such as increased deficit spending, but to make sure the bulk of this money actually truly makes it into the actual economy, and is not used to simply further inflate asset prices, such as property, no easy task id imagine, but it must be done, or we could all end up in real trouble, very very quickly, as more and more businesses go bust, and unemployment rises!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Unemployment is a double whammy. Not only do the unemployed not pay income based taxes, and their lower available cash means they consume less and so pay less VAT and related consumer taxes, they also get funded by the dole. So Gov would do well to avoid a rise in unemployment if they can.

    The only real way is on capital projects that the Gov want anyway, like Metrolink or the M20.

    Let us hope the Gov cop on to that and do not go the way to give support to those in 'poverty' beyond what is necessary. Giving €200 to every household as they did in April, including holiday homes, is not a very smart use of precious funds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ....or maybe they could have left covid supports such as pup, ewss etc in place, i.e. making sure some of the deficit continued to go directly into the economy!

    ...as you said yourself, those lower on the socioeconomic scale save less, therefore spend more of their 'income', which directly benefits the economy, as this money is spent into it.....



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    PUP etc were decided under duress and not properly thought out. We should not want to go there again - I mean Covid, but also badly thought out responses to a panic situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...so implementing a policy that immediately provided the economy with liquidity(money), was a bad idea, how so?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It cost a lot - of borrowed money. It has to be repaid, and it carries interest out of current expenditure.

    There was a time when ALL of the income tax paid the interest on the National Debt. That is unsustainable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    interests rates are still at an all time low in human history, baring in mind, all money is created via debt, by credit creation in the private domain, and by methods such as deficits in the public domain, we tried the ould excess credit creation method there some time ago, and it didnt end too well! graph included!

    yes these debts do indeed need to be repaid, but governments have a trick up their sleeve called 'debt roll over', whereby current debts can be rolled over, refinanced over a longer period, this is common practice globally, without causing any serious consequences, eg. the uk government only recently paid its first world war debts in full, last time i looked, they were still next door!

    its also important to note, most irish sovereign debt is set at fix rates, so......

    and again, its always important to remember, debt is the money supply, no debt, no money supply, no economy! hence why it was critical to increase the public money supply during covid via deficit spending , as there was a significant fall in the demand for new credit, in the private domain, i.e. less people taking on new private debts, without this increase in public debt, our economies would have simply collapsed!!




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Interest rates are on the rise, and will probably rise quite quickly. Zero interest rate is insane, but so is north of 5%. Above 5% and we are in trouble.

    Increasing interest rates is a Central Bank response to inflation, but carries with it the risk of recession, economic stagnation, and unemployment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Perhaps the government could bring in a special tax, aimed at the record profits being reaped by businesses while the citizenry are left drowning.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Hard to identify which companies are registering record profits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    What? It's not hard at all. Oil companies are a most obvious one



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Apart from oil, and gas, and electricity - do you go after supermarkets, car companies, banks, anyone else?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I'd go after any business involved in price gouging.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    But that is hard to prove. Do Apple price gouge with the price they charge for their products?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I mean, yes. They always have. However, I'm talking about businesses that have massively inflated prices over actual costs in the recent term.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How do you suggest then that the oil companies provide more oil into the market when the largest supplier in Europe is cut off? The oil employees themselves tool up, invade Russia and get the supply going again while bypassing EU sanctions?

    You say oil profits are up. Is that in absolute or relative terms? Because if you referring to absolute numbers, you are wrong. The value of their profits also diminishes in inflationary times. So while the number might look bigger, it's value may not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    A handful of factors have been blamed for soaring gas prices, which have headlined the suffocating inflation of the past year. Yet the blame for the price surge is quickly shifting toward gas companies and their profits.

    Several of the world's largest oil companies reported first-quarter earnings in recent weeks, giving investors new detail as to how sky-high gas prices are bolstering firms' bottom lines. Performance, in a word, was stellar. ExxonMobil reported a net profit of $5.5 billion, more than doubling its earnings from the year-ago period. Shell notched its strongest quarterly profit ever, and Chevron posted its best earnings quarter in nearly a decade

    Oil companies cutting production to maximize profits is absolutely a part of it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That doesn't mean that they are profiteering. If they take 3% profit of every euro made and the price increases, of course their profits will be higher.

    But when they or their investors spend that profit, they are also impacted by increasing costs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Of course, just a total stroke of luck that their profits doubled over last year. About time they caught a break.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Err, well yeah. If the price of their products increases, the higher their profits even if the profit % per euro spent is the same.

    This is basic economics. I can't believe I'm having to explain this on a politics forum.

    If it was that easy to engage in profiteering, why don't all companies follow suit and just keep jacking prices up and up and up?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It's not a lack of crude/ gas, it's been a calculated decision to restrict production in order to drive up prices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    i some how have a feeling oil companies are doing just fine, in all of this!




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thank God for that! You wouldn't want oil companies going out of business, reducing competition, reducing supply and thus driving up prices further now, would you?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Global oil demand in 2021 was 100 million barrels per day.

    According to the link from Wanderer78, oil companies profits were 562 million per day or $5.62 per barrel.

    The average cost of a barrel in 2021 was $70. So the profit margin was 8%. 8% is not profiteering. Go find some other conspiracy wagon to hitch on to.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    To decide whether it is profiteering, you would need to look at historic profit margins.

    In some businesses low margin is typical, but in others, a high margin is normal. Oil is dealt in huge volumes, so it would tend to be low margin, while bespoke businesses like Haute Couture is low volume and high margin.

    So what were the margins for oil companies over the last decade?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I dunno but 8% in an industry that requires constant investment and exploration doesn't sound particularly unreasonable to me.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, the constant investment and exploration costs are above the line costs and come out before the profit margin. Again, actual figures are better than 'sound particularly reasonable to me'.

    At a time of high inflation, allowing any price rises 'because we can' only prolongs the duration of inflation, and also causes a contraction of economic activity - leading to stagnation - and the dreaded stagflation.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think governments think more than about filling their coffers. Politically, inflation is very damaging for the Gov and populist parties in opposition just love pointing out how they have all the answers to inflation - just give the magic money tree a good shake and all the current problems disappear - wondrous.

    Running a multi-party coalition must be like herding cats.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Well that makes them sound altruistic and doing it for Ireland because inflation, at the level it's at, won't suit any politician whose earnings are being eroded too. Sure they might have more of a cushion for a salary drop but it's still an overall loss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Are any of the profit making oil companies taxable here? We can't just stick a tax onto Saudi Aramco as I am sure you are aware.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Unlikely, but I assume the government has mechanisms to combat price gouging. Really ought to be a pan European effort



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Has not worked for home rentals.

    In fact they have exacerbated the rental market with the HAP payments going to landlords as they increased the rents.

    Then the rent pressure zones were introduced allowing 4% rent increases when zero would have meant something - but instead was another twist to up rents. Now 'good' landlords who had not kept their rents at the top of the market allowing good tenants a bit of relief found they could not catch up and so lost out - some deciding to quit the market altogether.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    €20 increase on social that’s a winning move.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    It's worth noting that from 1986 to 2002 we had one of the lowest electricity prices in Europe.

    Deregulation forced it up. In 2002.

    The Government has recently got the power to restrict prices and put a windfall tax.

    But do you see them rushing to do this?

    We have been screwed for decades by various industries.

    Inflation is on top of price gouging



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    As far as I know, the ESB was a non-profit semi-state enterprise since its foundation.

    The EU considered this anti-competitive as it prevented commercial companies that needed a profit from competing with them (what? Surely competing is to reduce costs and enterprises that cannot compete on price just do not try).

    As a result of that, ESB had to start making a profit. So to increase competition to reduce prices, the ESB had to increase prices to produce profits (- really? Well that is EU logic).

    Once the ESB started reporting profits, the workers said 'We'll have some of that' - so wages climbed and prices rose to where we are now. Even electricity that comes from wind has risen with the cost of gas.

    Could not make it up.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,383 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The oil companies are not profiteering. Russia was a massive source of refined products as well as crude. There is suddenly a lack of refining capacity which means oil margins go up - no one is deliberately cutting production for this.

    Which is not to say a windfall tax should not be looked at.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Has the Gov got it right with the budget 2023? Can they compensate for inflation without adding to it?

    Of course the opposition say we would have done more for everyone, and the Gov must create certainty (how - nothing is certain with Russia going more rogue by the day) - they would say that.

    There are always edge cases that are quoted in the media, like the woman with three children with special needs and no public transport and she cannot afford the diesel, etc. etc.

    However, there is something there for everybody. Some measures are targeted and some are universal. The carbon tax on fuel has been neutralised by a change in excise, but that money is ringfenced for reducing carbon - so that is a win for the Greens. New tax rate at 30% in next years budget so a win for FG.

    All in all - not bad and could have been worse. Even some money reserved for the rainy day fund.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,603 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    New tax rate at 30% in next years budget

    I'll believe that when I see it and not before.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The problem with a 30% rate is that half of those caught by it would be better off if the 40% was moved up by half the 30% band. Those above the 40% are not affected if the 40% band is moved or the 30% rate is introduced.

    The 30% rate is needed to reduce the sudden transition from 20% to 40%.

    Difficult one and can only be done in a largely give away budget, but not in our inflationary time.

    We will know that inflation is here to stay when price rises are explained as 'because of inflation'. Inflation is a curse that has become embedded in our economy, but in recent times has been at a low level - less than 2%. In the 1970s it was at 22%. Controlling inflation is like trying to control the tide.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    putting a 10% levy on concrete is madness

    when every building material is already spiralling in cost

    and justifying it about the mica problem having to be paid for - you know it wasn't an issue affecting those in Dublin or around the Pale



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It is a nonsense.

    However, if it was used to fund a Building Control Office for the whole country - to make sure building standards are properly supervised - then it could be justified.

    Mica problem should be funded by revisiting the banks that have provided mortgages for these houses, by holding the block supplier liable, by revisiting the insurance companies who covered these buildings at any time, and also the builders who built these houses should carry some liability. The state should only cover the original construction - not the extensions.

    Perhaps some of the redress should be by way of low cost loans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash


    The block suppliers are limited liability companies without assets;

    The builders are bust/have no liability - and it would be time barred anyway (and retrospectively changing the law to make stuff that was a contractually agreed disposition of risks & costs to something else is problematic to say the least);

    This risk was not covered in insurance policies (home bond etc) - and in any case expired.

    There is something of an argument in relation to banks with mortgages - but only a little - the major beneficiaries are those with mica houses whose bad luck has been backstopped by the state.



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