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Changing venue in a court case

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  • 04-10-2022 5:34pm
    #1
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭


    Is there anything odd about this "application" to have a serious criminal trial moved from the County in which the offence was allegedly committed ?

    This was a particularly savage attack,which the Gardai deserve praise for bringing 3 suspects to court for.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2022/08/22/he-has-no-feeling-from-the-neck-down-he-is-still-on-a-ventilator-says-cousin-of-tom-niland/

    The proceedings are in the public domain,therefore some questioning of the merits,or otherwise,of this SC's application is a positive thing.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2022/1004/1327108-aggravated-burglary-sligo/

    The essence of the application appears simple....."Desmond Dockery, SC for Mr Clarke, said that the publicity generated by the case warrants it being moved."

    Does it ?

    Why specify Dublin ?

    Is it Mr Dockery's case that people from Dublin are less likely to have an interest in the proceedings ?

    Could Mr Dockery could have simply requested an In-Camera trial and be done with it ?

    Strange times indeed. 🤔


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)

    Post edited by Ten of Swords on


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    #2
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I think the idea is that locals are more emotionally invested and that this can result in a biased jury.



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    #3
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,855 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Locals are too connected to the case and will have preconceived opinions. The defendant deserves, in law, the opportunity to be tried in front of a non partisan jury. The best chance for that is outside of Sligo and in Dublin. It's far from an unusual situation.



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    #4
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701003#Comment_119701003

    I would have thought that Co Sligo was sufficiently populous to allow for the selection of a reasonably "unconnected" Jury.

    So,does this mean that any accused can choose to have their trial conducted in a location of their choice on this basis ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #5
    xxxxxxl
    Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701003#Comment_119701003

    But that would mean people from Dublin would be moved to cork for example has that ever happened ?



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    #6
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,639 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mod - A gentle reminder, do not discuss a case that is currently before the courts.

    Thread can continue as it's about legal processes rather than the case itself so please keep the discussion in general terms, if it strays into any details of the case it will be closed

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #7
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,855 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701038#Comment_119701038

    There's only a population of 65000 in County Sligo ( half of County Louth and ranked at no. 27 in the country)



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    #8
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,855 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701042#Comment_119701042

    No comparison. The odds of selecting a suitable jury from a population in excess of 800,000 doesn't compare.



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    #9
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,842 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    There's always the possibility that the defendants may have previous convictions for similar offences that would have been well covered in local papers at the time of previous trials/convictions.

    That leads to the possibility of a significant amount of people in the local area are likely to be familiar with said past histories, which could be deemed to be prejudicial to a fair trial.


    Either way - it's just the defence barrister making a request at the moment. Quite common for the defence to want the jury pool to be drawn from a locality as far away as possible from the victim's locality - even if the argument is of dubious merit!



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    #10
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 69,014 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701042#Comment_119701042

    A limited number of NI trials which got huge media coverage by the NI tabloids were moved to Dublin on that basis.

    If a defence counsel successfully argued that someone was too notorious/connected to get a jury in Dublin, the trial would collapse - Cork people aren't much likely to know them much less. However, those cases are always almost non-jury trials anyway.



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    #11
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701176#Comment_119701176

    Is there any possibility of the Judge telling a SC to take a hike with this line of business ?

    Either way,SC's are not infallible,and they may make wrong calls from time to time.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #12
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,842 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701953#Comment_119701953

    I’d say change of venue requests are more often rejected than accepted.


    The SC is representing the defendants - he’ll try whatever he can to try and get an edge.

    The judge is under no obligation to grant him any of his requests though, he’ll adjudicate any requests in its merits and it’s quite possible the SC for the State will lodge a submission opposing the request



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    #13
    mikethecop
    Registered Users Posts: 2,316 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    Supposed to be a jury of his peers right ? so a jury of people from his community, the community that these people choose to prey upon.

    Why not let them be the ones to judge them

    isnt that how society is supposed to work



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    #14
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,855 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119702686#Comment_119702686

    I'm not defending it but you have how it's supposed to work all wrong and none of the three of them are from Sligo.



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    #15
    timmyntc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,073 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119702686#Comment_119702686

    I think you're taking "jury of your peers" too literally.

    If they all knew him it would be a biased jury. If he is a convicted criminal and the jury was selected to also be convicted criminals (his peers), it would be biased. If it had to be peers of a matching ethnic group of the accused, it would be biased etc.



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    #16
    For Forks Sake
    Registered Users Posts: 11,596 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    As someone from Sligo, please change that tread title, it's totally irrelevant to the topic



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    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think the whole country can relate to the nature of these crimes - but speaking in general terms as it’s subjudice - I don’t see moving it from one county to another would be right- whist people all over the country have suffered break ins and aggravated burglaries, the particularly vicious ones are often rural based. Let the crimes be tried where they happen if possible or appropriate from a legal process perspective- that’s why we have courts throughout the land - is my view- the jury swear an oath- let’s not go the American jury route where they practically demand your life history- the evidence will greatly influence the outcome - I think Irish juries are in the main a sensible enough bunch of people -



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    #18
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,639 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Thread title updated

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #19
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701038#Comment_119701038

    Any accused can make the application, but it will stand or fall on its merits. If the Judge thinks that there's no need to do it, it won't be done.



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