Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

billie1b · 26-09-2022 1:31pm

A few weeks ago there was a conflict on the turn between the fox inners leading to apron 6, one aircraft was told to hold short at a certain point while the other aircraft was told to continue around fox inners onto apron 6, the first aircraft didn't stop at the hold point and conflicted with the other aircraft, after it was looked into the DAA/IAA realised the new holding points weren't updated onto the aerodrome notice so they closed off the holding point, it was between two sets of apron works and available up to CAT C aircraft. Up until it was rectified and updated the DAA were providing escorts to all aircraft inbound and outbound around the junction between the 2 points whether it was an ATR or a 777. There's no escorts now unless requested.

bikeman1 · 26-09-2022 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119666252#Comment_119666252

This is the standard departure for the new North runway when they are departing to the West. All flights using 28R take an early right turn (to avoid a potential conflict with 28L in a go-around situation). This means that they are climbing right around Ashbourne and Oldtown and much lower than 28R as you elude to.

This will become the main departing route for all departures from Dublin throughout the day once the hours are extended for operations when the prevailing Westerly winds are blowing. Basically, you better get used to having lots of climbing aircraft in the Ashbourne area going forward.

Irish Steve · 26-09-2022 10:00pm

There have been local "discussions" about the departures over Ashbourne, the problems are being caused by wide body departures, not just going west, the WB departures going east are also crossing Ashbourne as well, and are more noticable due to the larger engines with a different noise profile, and a slower climb, and from comments made by one of the local councillors, it seems that there may be changes to a more normal straight ahead departure until 3000 Ft before then turning, which should mean that the Ashbourne area won't get quite as many wide body overflights at lower levels. That said, they're not that bad, the days of the 737-200's and Rombac 1-11's were much more noticeable, and for longer. As for what will come out of the system over time, who knows, the fact that the standard departure route has been routed over the second largest population area in Meath is a little strange, given how close it is to the airport. Time will tell.

lovelyhurler · 27-09-2022 9:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668782#Comment_119668782

I live in Ashbourne, and while I think its great that we're getting a 'better view' of the wide bodies as the climb out, a neighbour of mine has repeatedly complained to a local councillor to "get then to change the flight path" - like a councillor can.🙄

Anyway, when I pointed out to him that currently there are less filghts than normal coming over his house in the mornings from the new northern runway (due to the sudden turn right for northern European flights), he was quite surprised. Then I asked him if he was going to ask the Fire and rescue servcies to run off their sirens when passing the estate, or the buses to go a bit quiter. He got a bit irate at this. 🤔

Phen2206 · 27-09-2022 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119666252#Comment_119666252

I know someone has replied already but I just thought it might help to visualise the new standard departures so its easier to understand why there's more noise over the likes of Ashbourne.

These are the current departure routes from the old 28L:

Aircraft climb straight ahead off 28L for about 5 nautical miles to the waypoint DW108 before turning right or left depending on the routing. Aircraft turning right would normally be anywhere between approx 4-6000ft as they fly overhead the Ashbourne area in the turn.

These are the current departures from the new 28R:

You can see the departures take an immediate right turn after departure right overhead the Ashbourne area. The reason they don't climb straight ahead is to do with separation from any traffic departing off 28L or in a go-around off 28L. Departure design principles therefore have minimum angles of turn away from the adjacent runway that must be adhered to for these safety reasons. Therefore its not as easy as just asking the local councillor to "get them to change the flight path". Perhaps things can be tweaked but if this is to happen it would almost certainly result instead in an early left turn off 28L down over the northwest of the city which will annoy a bigger number of people.

Phen2206 · 27-09-2022 1:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119658343#Comment_119658343

The RNP approach on 10L has been used multiple days since the runway opened on days when the wind was easterly, but there's nothing in the Dublin NOTAMs at the moment about it not being available now. The ILS system on 10L/28R is still not operational however; no date seems to have been given for that yet.

Cloudio9 · 27-09-2022 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670854#Comment_119670854

Thanks, but when 10L/R have been in operation they continue to follow the existing noise mitigation procedure and fly runway heading for 5 miles on 10R, not turning before they are over the Irish sea.

Phen2206 · 27-09-2022 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119671199#Comment_119671199

Its only necessary for departures from one of the runways to take a divergent early turn, not necessary for both runways. The departures for 10L haven't been published yet (in any case it seems they will rarely be used) but when they are, I expect they will have a similar early left turn to the early right turn of 28R.

Departures off 10L will likely be similar to the missed approach procedure for 10L which you can see above. Interesting to note it seems to go right over Malahide - I'd expect there'll be much more upset if they allow some heavy departures off 10L in future 😬

Cloudio9 · 28-09-2022 7:58am

yeah but my point is they don’t require any right turn off 10R at the moment to avoid potential conflicts with go around traffic approaching 10L so on the face of it, it seems like the immediate right turn off 28R is not essential.

Captain_Crash · 28-09-2022 8:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119674523#Comment_119674523

Because the go around procedure itself off 10L has a left turn, as published above. Hence no need for any turn from departing traffic on 10R.

Basically traffic on 28R/10L has a turn (28R deps, 10L GA’s)

And traffic on 28L/10R is straight out both directions

Qaanaaq · 28-09-2022 10:43am

Any news on when the new runway operational hours will be activated beyond the current 1 pm ?

LiamaDelta · 28-09-2022 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675179#Comment_119675179

perhaps today. It didn't come into operation until about 10am this morning and they are still using it currently at 12.55

LXFlyer · 28-09-2022 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675730#Comment_119675730

No it’s just switched back to 28L.

IngazZagni · 28-09-2022 1:20pm

And now back to a big queue for takeoff and the full arc arrival. Longer opening hours can't come soon enough.

Economics101 · 29-09-2022 2:19pm

Is it true that the 10L/28R ILS is not yet in operation? I thought that testing was done months ago?

Also, if you depart 09R at Heathrow there is no early turn required (not even to avoid Windsor Castle!). Given LHR's heavy traffic if there is no need to turn away from the centreline of the other runway, why not in Dublin? After all the parallel runways in both airports are more or less similarly configured.

Captain_Crash · 29-09-2022 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680549#Comment_119680549

You mean this 9R departure 👀

Economics101 · 29-09-2022 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680711#Comment_119680711

Sorry, I meant 27R: straight ahead to Windsor. I was aware of the early turn off 09R. My mistake, but the question still remains: are early turns like this always necessary or even usual practice?

Phen2206 · 29-09-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680549#Comment_119680549

Yes the ILS 10L/28R is still not operational and there are still no published departures for 10L or arrivals for 28R. Maybe someone here knows why the ILS is still not in use or when these procedures will be published.

Regarding LHR, the missed approaches of 27L, 27R and 09L all have immediate turns away from the adjacent parallel runway. Some Heathrow departures don't have immediate turns but the missed approach procedure of the adjacent runway should ensure separation. The missed approach of 09R though is straight ahead (possibly due to conflict with LGW airspace) so whenever 09R is used for landing or 09L is used for departure (which is very very rare as its almost always 09L for landing and 09R for departure) ATC probably ensures separation by careful management/staggering of the movements so as not to allow a potential conflict.

Captain_Crash · 29-09-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680838#Comment_119680838

Ahh I was half tongue in cheek tbf 😜Joking aside tho, there is an early turn from 27R although not as early as in DUB! If you google EGLL charts you’ll find the procedures in question. Also bear in mind Heathrow has been operating dual ops for decades and the runways are further apart!

In Dublin's case, the IAA have opted for the procedures in place for reasons that ensure everyone’s safety.

bikeman1 · 29-09-2022 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680838#Comment_119680838

Yes, but 27L diverges to the left after becoming airborne and 27R continues straight ahead towards Windsor as you describe. This is the exact opposite of the DUB setup which has 27L straight ahead and 27R as the diverging runway. This is normal dual runway procedure.

With the city of Dublin immediately to the South of runways at Dublin, they will not be diverging over say Coolock and Raheny or Castleknock and the West of the city which is very much a built up area. The established routes straight in and out will prevail there, meaning the North runway will be the diverging runway for safety reasons. If you live in that area (Ashbourne / Oldtown / Garristown etc.) you will soon become very familar with the amount of departures at DUB in the morning peak, especially during the Summer timetable. Flights will be blasting overhead every 90 seconds or less for hours starting at 06:30.

moonshy2022 · 30-09-2022 10:19am

Just watched a few departures off the new runway on flight radar.

aircraft cross AKs (radio dj) house above 3000ft

heavies cross Ashbourne above 6000ft and EI to Paris crossed above 8000ft. This is equal to what happens off the old runway. So sorry no complaints here. In fact watching the track of the SIDs they don’t even cross above Ashbourne they pass south of the town.

in fact the vast majority of the tracks seem to miss most large areas of population. So trying to avoid individual homes or very small clusters of homes I would imagine is impossible and impractical.

EchoIndia · 02-10-2022 11:25am

Interesting exchange between ATC and EI105 today. It was explained that on runway 28R, departure from intersection N2 is the default unless the full length is required for operational reasons. And in low-visibility procedures the extension before the displaced threshold won't be available at all. So for the most part, heavies won't benefit from the extra runway length unless they specifically require it. ATC said that this was as intended and notified to the airlines ages ago. Apparently the objective is to minimise wake turbulence issues between departures.

Bsal · 03-10-2022 2:46am

They've made some changes to the 28R departures effective from the next airac cycle on 6th October and introducing ILS and RNP approaches for 28R and departures from 10L.

New procedure with the initial right turn modified.

Old procedure

10L departures

Brendan Bendar · 03-10-2022 6:57pm

Nice little shimmy left fairly sharpish after take off from 10l….clear the coast a bit south of the Grand Hotel it looks like.

04-10-2022 1:27pm

Full details on new SIDs and ILS approaches are here - page 85 et seq.

https://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-source/publications/ei_amdt_a_2022_010_en.pdf?sfvrsn=4f2d12f3_2

Irish Steve · 04-10-2022 4:29pm

If the departures off 28R actually fly the routes shown, it will reduce the overflights of Ashbourne, but I'm not going to hold my breath, in that some of the recent departures that have over flown are not on the existing routes, so the chances are that they won't be sticking strictly to the new plan. The number of less than helpful comments on places like Facebook make it not worth even bothering to engage there, anyone would think they were coming over at 1500 Ft, but there's no pleasing some people.

The difference is that there's many more wide body aircraft operating in and out of Dublin now compared to a few years ago, between the larger number that Aer Lingus are operating, and the Middle East destinations, alongside the trans atlantic flights from other operators, they've increased exponentially compared to even 15 years ago. Fortunately, the engines are quieter than the older engines, so it's not as bad as it might have been in there were still some of the older aircraft flying, things like the 707 and DC8 were a very different story.

Cloudio9 · 04-10-2022 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700667#Comment_119700667

The A330's are loud enough, noticeably louder than the other wide bodies apart from the 767. The most dramatic improvement is the 737 Max which is incredibly quiet compared to the 737 NG and A320.

EchoIndia · 05-10-2022 4:23pm

Hard to know what Ryanair is at here. While not ideal, the tunnel would seem to offer the opportunity to use the western aprons in a way that is not currently practicable. These stands are currently underutilised at times when stands elsewhere on the airport are fully occupied. From a safety point of view, mixing aircraft and vehicular traffic on a very busy airfield seems undesirable, to say the least.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ryanair-objects-to-plans-for-200m-tunnel-at-dublin-airport-saying-costs-will-be-passed-on-to-passengers-42043223.html