Licensee renting troubles

You will have to leave. John could maybe stay even with eviction notices etc but you have no rights because you’re not a tenant. Not moving in extra people without permission is a clause in almost any rental lease. Where are you living before? Can you go back there?

That’s rough. Get back on to Threshold for advice. Your best bet might be to appeal to the landlord’s better nature. From their perspective another tenant brings no advantages. There’s more wear and tear on the property but no increased income. If the whole place is rented as a single unit they can’t increase the rent because of the RPZ legislation (assuming it’s in an RPZ) but if it’s rented by the room they may be able to start charging you separately. If you stay, your friend could also get evicted. I really don’t have good advice for you but I hope you find something.

licensee is really a visitor... and has about the same rights

does the LL really have the power to control who visits the house and stays overnight? one night? one week? or where is the limit?

what about a partner? also not allowed by a landlord?

the lease might say "no subletting", but the licensee is not a sublet situation

If you had two coats would you lend one to a coatless stranger for the winter for free because you care more about human life than wear and tear on your coat? If not, then you must also have ‘zero compassion’, no?

I know it’s a terrible situation for renters at the moment but painting all landlords as big baddies is simplistic. The reality is the LL hasn’t vetted you, and if they let you become a tenant and you were to cause problems they can’t get you out for years. They also can’t charge extra rent to cover the additional costs an extra tenant brings. Landlords did not devise this system. Populist politicians and tenant advocacy groups created this situation and it has backfired massively for regular, rule-abiding tenants.

You appear to be caught in an awkward situation where you will more than likely have to leave.

Your mate John would be benefiting from you paying him reducing his rent but it was a big mistake leaving your previous accommodation without getting permission from John's landlord.

One of the biggest issues facing the landlord is if they needed to end the tenancy for whatever reason and John agreeing to move but you refusing.

He says 3 rooms. I added John in for a fourth.

"His [LL] reason for not adding me was over crowding but there are 3 rooms in the house and 1 person for each room"

irrelevant to the question being asked by OP anyway - or what's your point?

Not sure if you are being serious?

Are the couple the original tenants? or someone a tenant invited to stay? if the the latter then yes, they can tell (not ask) them to get out,so Yes they do have a right.

...

OK so he's let a 3 bed house to two people, you have come in as a 3rd. There is nothing in it for the LL and having 3 flatmates leads to falling-out's then the tenants expect the LL to act as social worker and get involved. There is no upside to the LL for this.

How are you going to give them an upside or remove any risk for you 3 been there v the LL reletting it to somebody else. You need to figure this out for them and present them with a win win.

Another way of looking at it is that they LL approved of two people, he doesn't know you and you could be unreliable and cause hassle for them.

I had it with a tenant, they asked to let a friend stay in their flat while they went travelling, they were a good tenant so we said yes, this then turned in to two years or traveling and different friends, parties front door left open and Guards called....

How will your friend feel if you're the reason he gets a notice to leave because of a breach of contract?

The law is that if you are renting an entire property you are entitled to sublet to a licensee regardless of what is in the lease. The law trumps any lease. The landlord needs to be notified but has no say on the matter.

• Licensee – is a person allowed to reside in a rental property but has no rights as a tenant. A licensee in a private rented dwelling is there by invitation of the tenant, the relationship of a licensee is with the tenant and not with the landlord. The tenant is under a statutory obligation to inform the landlord of the identity of resident in the dwelling however, the landlord is not in a position to to accept or veto the individual concerned as he/she would with a tenant. The tenant is responsible for all of the acts and commissions of their licensee, should the licensee breach an obligation applying to the tenancy the tenant will be in breach – example of breach could be anti-social behaviour or redecorating without the landlord’s written consent.

Subletting is very different to a licensee situation

• Subletting – is where a tenant permits another party to lease the rental property and they move out. The rent is paid by the other party to the tenant and the tenant pays the landlord. There is an obligation on the tenant to get the landlord’s consent in writing for a subletting, subletting can only take place with the consent of the landlord.

For landlords renting a whole property to anyone is a bonkers decision as they cede control and all rights to the tenant. They can get licensees in, they can Airbnb it and there is not much you can do. A better way is to rent individual rooms on a licence basis but that is a lot of effort for a small time landlord. Hence the movement of small time landlords from the market.

For example someone renting a 4 bed house for a few years at under market rate, say 1000 a month. He could decide to keep one room for himself and rent the others out at 600 a month pocketing 800 a month. The landlord cant increase the rent because its in a RPZ. He cant do anything about the tenant, and he has no say or access to the excess rent. And to top it all off the tenant does not pay any tax on the excess income because he is covered under the rent a room scheme. Bonkers

Not correct.

Licensing arrangements in private rented accommodation are often confused with sub-lettings and assignments. 

There is a difference between the above mentioned and it is important that landlords know the distinction.

The main difference is that when a tenant assigns or sublets the rental accommodation, they no longer live in it. However, if a tenant takes in a licensee, the licensee shares the accommodation with the tenant.

If your tenant takes a student or any other licensee under the rent a room scheme you cannot object as a landlord.

I can only assume you are an amateur landlord who does not understand the law. Im a professional Landlord. What you posted deals with subletting. Im not going back and forth but you need to specifically focus on licensees and get away from sub-letting. Taking a licensee is not sub letting. Note point 4.

https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/licences

Im not sure what you are referring to regarding the lead tenant. If they have moved out then it is subletting and not allowed. If he has rented the whole property and is still resident then the op is a licensee.

The law does not restrict the amount of licensees. Again it is up to the owner/tenant, nothing to do with amount of bedrooms. Yes it could be 8 and even unlimited and tenancy law does not have any clarity on this. There is no legislation in Ireland on the amount of persons that can occupy any dwelling, rented or not as long as fire, health and safety issues etc are not present.

On a side note I would never rent a full dwelling to anyone as it is a minefield. There is easier ways to be a full time landlord.

No there is not. If you dont know your facts stop posting misinformation.

Breach of a lease is irrelevant. Leases are not worth the paper they are written on. The law is what takes precedent.

You are using wrong terminology. Again I am referring to licensees. There is 3 categories. Landlord Tenant and licensee. There is only legislation that licencees are allowed but no upper limit is given.

• Licensee – is a person allowed to reside in a rental property but has no rights as a tenant. A licensee in a private rented dwelling is there by invitation of the tenant, the relationship of a licensee is with the tenant and not with the landlord. The tenant is under a statutory obligation to inform the landlord of the identity of resident in the dwelling however, the landlord is not in a position to to accept or veto the individual concerned as he/she would with a tenant. The tenant is responsible for all of the acts and commissions of their licensee, should the licensee breach an obligation applying to the tenancy the tenant will be in breach – example of breach could be anti-social behaviour or redecorating without the landlord’s written consent.

A tenant can invite as many licencees to the house as they wish and there is no limit on how long they can stay as long as the landlord is informed. A licensee is not a tenant and the property is therefore not sublet so not in breach of any lease term. Note the text in bold.

There is no entitlement in the law to allow tenants to bring in licensees. The only thing the law requires is that the landlord is given the names of anyone who is in regular occupation of the property. However, the law also does not otherwise restrict or prohibit tenants from taking in licensees. As such, the landlord can add terms to the tenancy agreement that prohibit the tenant from taking in licensees, and if the tenant breaches that term then their tenancy could be terminated due to that breach. If the landlord doesn't add such a term to their agreement, however, then they have no statutory right to prevent the tenant from taking on a licensee.

This is in contrast to rights which are explicitly granted to the tenant by law and cannot be overridden by a tenancy agreement (e.g. minimum notice periods or Part 4 tenancy rights), and to rights which are explicitly granted to the landlord by law and apply regardless of whether they are in a tenancy agreement (such as the right to deny permission to sublet the property or assign the lease to another party).

Regarding the number of licensees a tenant can bring on, while that isn't explicitly limited in the RTA itself, it would be effectively limited by the Part 4 grounds for termination, one of which is "[t]he dwelling is no longer suitable to the accommodation needs of the tenant and of any persons residing with him or her having regard to the number of bed spaces contained in the dwelling and the size and composition of the occupying household". In other words, if the tenant invites a dozen licensees to live in his 3br house, the landlord can terminate the tenancy on the basis that the house is now overcrowded if the tenant doesn't correct the issue.

Unless something is proscribed by law, it is permitted.

It may be debatable whether a clause in a tenancy agreement would take precedent over a tenants right to peaceable enjoyment of their home (including having guests or licencees) but no explicit permission would be required.

Section 12(1)(a) of the Residential Tenancy Act obliges a landlord to allow the tenant of the dwelling to enjoy peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling

and

section 18(1) which states no provision of any lease, tenancy agreement, contract or other agreement (whether entered into before, on or after the commencement of this Part) may operate to vary, modify or restrict in any way section 12 or 16.

In that the act in section 16(k) specifically prohibits assigning or subletting without the landlord's consent but is silent on the matter of a licensee and section 16(n) obliges the tenant to notify in writing the landlord of the identity of each person (other than a multiple tenant) who, for the time being, resides ordinarily in the dwelling. It is clear that occupants (a licensee for example) other than the tenants are provided for and allowed by the act.

At either extreme it would be clear if a tenant or landlord were in breach of their obligations but there is room for some debate in the middle ground but I would say three tennants in a four bedroom house taking in a licensee in the fourth bedroom would not in itself be a breach of the tenants obligations, provided of course they notify the landlord in writing of the additional occupant.