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NI Census 2021

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,579 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You realise that every time you refer to a ‘failed NI’ you are out of sync with the vast majority of people living in NI. They have consistently said they want to remain in NI in UK. If it is failed then the majority here must think roi is an even bigger failure.

    if I thought ni was this great ongoing failure then I would move to Scotland. Why don’t the small group of people living here who say it is a failure - why don’t they consider living in the promised land in roi. They went down on their buses to less than half fill the arena at the weekend, and they all returned again that evening to get their free doc appointments free prescriptions etc. it doesn’t add up



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    From what I understand, NI (and west of Ireland) are regarded as areas that need investment, so would be eligible for all the funding that Ireland got when it first joined the EU and all those roads were built. Ireland became a net contributor when it wasn't receiving EU funding for roads, schools, hospitals etc. If you apply for funding from the EU and the project is approve (i.e., roads, rail, airport, ports, etc. - all badly needed in NI), you will get the funding if the EU Commission agrees it. Nothing to do with Latvia or Lithuania being annoyed Ireland investing what it already gives.

    The reason Germany and the Netherlands are net contributors is because they don't need to invest in infrasture the same way that former Soviet block countries do.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think a 30 year civil war, with 3,000 dead is the sign of a failed entity.

    How do you measure failure?

    The height of the barricades (or peace walls as they call them)? The complete segregation of the schools? The number of stones and other unspeakable items thrown at school children as they pass through an area opposed to them? The fact that voters only vote for their side in an election? The requirement politicians elected to the assembly have to declare which side their party is on - and that matters and is part of the constitution of the NI Assembly? The constant threat of violence as a solution to political disputes - and that means lethal violence?

    None of those exists here in Ireland.

    As for getting free prescriptions - are you seriously putting that forward as a reason for deciding the future of NI? The NHS in NI is at breaking point, as it is in the whole of the UK.

    It is like saying that a supermarket is offering a two for one on an item that you do not normally buy as the reason to shop there.

    Wages in Ireland are higher and social security is higher - and we are working on the health system. We do have many problems and they will take a long time to solve, and once they are solved, there will be other new ones that need solving - that is life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,579 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    A measure I would use is have any communities felt the need to leave the country to get fair play.

    both major communities in ni have flourished numerically in ni - and of course when you have two major blocks that disagree on fundamental issues like identity there will be conflict.

    roi doesn’t have the conflict because 70% of one community left and the other 30% learnt to keep their heads down and not get above their station.

    usa, Australia, nz, Canada, etc, all appear very successful countries but the reality is that if they had allowed the native population to grow and flourish in their midst then the conflicts in their countries would make NI troubles look like a kindergarten scrap.

    success is viewed differently by those who benefit from it and those who don’t.

    roi managed the situation successfully over the last 100 years - when viewed through an Irish nationalist lens

    PS have a wee think which school system is most segregated, north or south?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    By any metric, a society that cannot sustain a functioning government (devolved or otherwise) is a 'failed state'.

    There is no alternative plan in front of people.

    Put one there and then you can talk about what people want.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,839 ✭✭✭✭josip


    One wee think later, I would like to give our anecdotal (Dublin) experience. We're catholic and there are 4 or 5 schools nearby, one a gaelscoil, one non-denom, 2 catholic and one coi. We went with the coi, because it was academically one of the better and also a bit smaller than the equally good, but larger catholic school. I think there are other catholics/non coi in the school, but the religious angle isn't a thing for us. Our daughters attend morning assembly the same as all the others. Maybe it's different in other schools, but I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking about them where I don't know the situation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    "roi doesn’t have the conflict because 70% of one community left and the other 30% learnt to keep their heads down and not get above their station."


    So there would have been no conflict if the majority of Irish/Catholics would have left NI after partition and the small number who remained just accepted their lot as 2nd class as citizens?


    You come out with some zingers... This has to be up there though!



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Last I checked the UK has just elected a new Prime Minister.

    Our county councils are not fit for purpose and have had many functions (water, motor tax, driving licences, roads, etc.) stripped off them in the last 30 years, does that make us a "failed state"?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    @downcow

    A measure I would use is have any communities felt the need to leave the country to get fair play.

    Arlene Foster has stated that she would leave NI is there was a UI - so there you have it - NI is a failed state according to Arlene.

    both major communities in ni have flourished numerically in ni - and of course when you have two major blocks that disagree on fundamental issues like identity there will be conflict.

    Flourished - 3,000 have died in a civil war - is that how Northerners flourish?

    roi doesn’t have the conflict because 70% of one community left and the other 30% learnt to keep their heads down and not get above their station.

    There is only one community here in Ireland. We do not have polarisation on the scale of NI to have a division of communities that live in different estates based on their identity, or attend different schools based on their identity.

    usa, Australia, nz, Canada, etc, all appear very successful countries but the reality is that if they had allowed the native population to grow and flourish in their midst then the conflicts in their countries would make NI troubles look like a kindergarten scrap.

    What on earth has that to do with Ireland or NI?

    success is viewed differently by those who benefit from it and those who don’t.

    True, but trite nonsense.

    roi managed the situation successfully over the last 100 years - when viewed through an Irish nationalist lens

    We do not have the labels you use in NI, but the economic figures speak for themselves. Of course, NI does not have any true economic figures because they are mashed into UK figures and then fudged.

    PS have a wee think which school system is most segregated, north or south?

    Another poster has answered this point.

    It is clear you have no experience or idea how the school system works in Ireland. I would expect in the next decade, the whole school system will change beyond recognition of what pertained a decade ago.

    But NI is truly segregated. In Ireland, the school system was fully segregated 100 years ago and has evolved to be much, much less so now, and the way things are going, is only going to get less so in the future. Is there any sign of that in NI?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It wasn't a 30-year civil war, it was a terrorist campaign sustained to varying levels over a period.

    However, even if we were to accept your view that it was a 30-year civil war, and this counts as a failure, then surely the 30 years of peace since then count as a success which begs the question why change something that is at peace?



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Is it at peace?

    Loyalist threaten violence over the NI Protocol, currently - backed by the DUP.

    There are still shootings in NI on sectarian issues.

    DUP still threaten the GFA, saying that it is dead if the NI Protocol is not scrapped.

    What is the difference between a civil war and a terrorist campaign engaged in by two distinct groups clearly identified by sectarian labels? The fact that one of the sectarian groups is aided and supported by the UK Gov does not stop it being a civil war, or being a terrorist campaign.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,579 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    This is exactly what I am saying. Simply stating a fact. I, like any right thinking person, would feel such a situation would be disgraceful and thankfully it didn’t happen in NI.

    unfortunately it did happen in many places. The world over there are decimated minorities who either were massacred, got out or keep their heads down.

    which bit of this are you disagreeing with?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,579 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    There is so much nonsense in this I don’t know where to start.

    Arlene says she ‘may’ leave a UI. She has no notion of leaving ni.

    “there is only one community here in NI”. Classic statement of a member of a majority ruling community. Tell that to the settled travelling community, the Africans or the Asians, many of who live in isolated communities for their safety. Are you unaware of the ghetto communities in places like west Dublin? Are you aware of the situation where that terrible tragedy a couple of weeks ago took place? Take the blinkers off.

    you say I don’t understand your Ed system and you are correct, I don’t fully understand it. I am though very aware of the situation described by the recent poster and I know catholics who send their kids to coi schools. You though clearly don’t understand ni schooling. Do you believe that almost all young people in ni attend exclusively Protestant or catholic schools? You have a far higher percentage of church run religious schools than we do. Do you agree? Outside the catholic school system in ni, I don’t know a single young person who attends a school that does not have a significant mix at it. They exist but only in areas where there is only single identity catchment. Most state schools are getting more and more mixed. My own kids attended a state school which is approx 35% RC and that is not unusual



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,579 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    “Loyalist threaten violence over the NI Protocol, currently - backed by the DUP.” - not sure what you are talking about. Both sides have done exactly the same and pointed out the dangers of diminishing their own communities identity 

    “There are still shootings in NI on sectarian issues. “ - I honestly am not aware of these could you give us a few examples? I haven’t checked but I would be fairly sure there is much higher gun crime in Dublin than Belfast in fact our recent killings are organised by your Dublin gabgs

    “DUP still threaten the GFA, saying that it is dead if the NI Protocol is not scrapped”. - that’s politics and democracy

    “What is the difference between a civil war and a terrorist campaign engaged in by two distinct groups clearly identified by sectarian labels? The fact that one of the sectarian groups is aided and supported by the UK Gov does not stop it being a civil war, or being a terrorist campaign.” - I don’t think we had a full blown civil war



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    @downcow I think a little google and there you have it. I remember her saying it, but here it is is print by a northern paper so it must be true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The Hutch and Kinahans gangland war is killing more people now than terrorists in the North. Does that mean we are not at peace?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    No, it means the criminals are killing each other and the Gardai are doing all they can to stop them - and achieving some success. Many are banged up and more due to follow them. CAB are also dealing with the matter.

    There are others out there killing others as well and it is not considered a threat to 'peace'. There was a man killed at a funeral the other day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,382 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    There are plenty of polls to suggest you are 100% wrong on this Francie.

    There just isn't majority support for a UI at present and unlikely to be one in the near future. Even if a plan is drawn up people will get even more anti-UI as they will see that they will have to pay for it, and get little back in return.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There is no plan or proposal on the table for unity, until there is then it is just guesswork. And I guess the fear evident as the conversation just begins says a lot about the reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Varadkar put ideas on the table at the weekend. Fair play to him for doing so, despite the attempts of the bully-boys to boo him down.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Exaggeration.

    Varadkar was booed by a small section over a specific point he made. He was applauded, like all the other speakers, when he finished.

    Do you know the difference between a plan and an idea?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    At least Nationalists will not be giving them the ultimatum that the "Plantin o Ulstèr" invaders gave to our ancestors. "To Hell or to Connaught".

    "To Hell or to Crossmaglen" maybe?

    Before you reign in, it tongue in cheek. 😀

    Post edited by 10000maniacs on


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭FraserburghFreddie


    Not to mention the race and drug wars around Dublin and surrounding areas.People being dismembered and gardai being attacked.It makes the news here in the UK also.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The PIRA campaign was a bunch of criminals using politics to cover for their criminal behaviour. There was nothing glorifying about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Has the entity known as Northern Ireland been able to govern itself?

    Nope, it has failed and even with an internationally binding agreement to oversee it in place, is STILL without an Executive or Assembly.

    Failed utterly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Last I checked the Westminister government was still in place.

    I take it that you believe that this State has been governed well over the last 100 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Unbelievable, if you think that answer will fool anyone.

    Northern Ireland as a 'state' has not and is not functioning. It has taken an international agreement to give it some semblance of a normal democracy and even that has failed to bring stability of governance - regardless what you think of the quality of the governance. So stop trying to tiresomely divert.



  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭FraserburghFreddie


    Agreed,cowards intimidating the public and hiding in ditches like rats to ambush legal representatives.The depressing thing about it is the people who glorify and hero worship these criminals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,579 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Exactly. She said “I think I would leave”. I said she said she “may leave”. You said she said she “would leave”. Now who was most accurate?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,579 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Sam any chance of a few examples of these sectarian shootings you say are ongoing in the north?



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