Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

I totally agree with you . Same here .

But most of the over 65s should have had their boosters by then or since .

It's up to everyone themselves at this stage but while that immunity will protect for a while it may not protect against whatever dose is circulating over this winter especially if they have risks or underlying conditions .

For example ..I know two 80 year olds who caught it recently . One fit and well controlled blood pressure, cardiac condition , the other fit except high blood pressure and kidney disease. Both fully vaccinated but only one boosted twice .

One died of cardiac complications 6 weeks post infection and seemingly recovered .RIP . The other is a bit tired but getting back to normal . The second was boosted twice .

Sorry to be graphic .

For those on here wondering why we're still talking Covid, it's because we're still getting the data e.g. those official CSO figures from August 2022 showed:

• 91% of Covid deaths occurred in persons aged 65+ i.e. they were old
• 80% of Covid deaths included 3+ medical conditions listed on the death cert i.e. they were old and already sick (unless you believe that Covid prompted the onset of those other conditions (e.g. pneumonia) as some of those fact-checking journos implied :-)

Also, there will never be an inquiry or anyone held to account. NEVER EVER NEVER. All you can do is continue to ask our GPs and doctors how they feel about the Covid response so that they stand up and are counted next time around!

And what were the stats for ICU admissions and hospitalisations? They all skewed younger than the figures presented. They were the ones who survived, because there was hospital capacity there to treat them.

People over 65 have decades of life ahead of them.

There's a lot old and sick people in this country. And people who care about them. Who don't just want to write them off as you do.

Covid caused pneumonia. This is an established fact and how it was first identified due to surge of pneumonia cases. TO suggest covid does not cause pneumonia is false, and you innuendo about fact checking journalists shows your true colours.

Nobody?

This is an article in The Guardian. There are similar articles on the BBC website linked on the thread.

The author of chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh.

Are you trying to say that one 80 year old died because they only had 3 vaccines and the person with 4 didn't? Where is your proof that the 4th vaccine saved their life?

Both people were or are near the end of their life expectancy, I think that's the bigger factor here, particularly when the boosters are for old strains of Covid.

It may as well be this thread as what else is being discussed on it...

First of all we need to remember that the figures for 2022 so far are not age or population increase adjusted. The actual excess is likely to be significantly lower because at present you are comparing raw 2022 figures with figures in part from 2016 (2016-2019 + 2021).

There's no evidence it is due to immune system weakening. Many kinds of viruses were suppressed by anti covid measures, these are now back in circulation. But there doesn't seem to be a spike in deaths related to non covid infectious diseases.

It is unlikely to be vaccine related as the variation across countries is not explicable in relation to the vaccine rates in the country.

If heart it is likely a combination of long covid after affects and \ or missed medical involvement.

If cancer it is likely to be missed medical involvement.

We need to remember as well that many vulnerable people took extreme precautions during covid. Restrictions are lifted. People are back living normally, going on holidays, pushing themselves etc ... some of the deaths we are seeing in 2022 are people who in other years may well have died in 2020 or 2021 from strokes, cardiac failures etc.

It was your own choice, based on our previous discussion, not to converse with me on topics such as this, which I thought was mutually beneficial and was happy to keep it that way.

I dismiss the notion that phenomenon of unexplained excess deaths is due to implausible causes such as heatwave or ageing and am very much against the ‘here is your explanation, now move on – nothing to see here’ approach to it. This is that kind of a simplistic and shallow thinking that got us into the endless list of ridiculous measures for dealing with covid over the last few years; measures that some would argue caused more harm than good.

Problem like this requires second level thinking and consideration of combinations, permutations and thinking in terms of probabilities. What you suggest as a cause for this is for sure far more plausible than other causes mentioned so far here. There is indeed research suggesting that early strains of the virus may have had such a harmful effect. The same ‘experts’ also say that this is highly unlikely to be the case with omicron now. On the other hand we have those ‘experts’ who claim that vaccines, especially mRNA, can have serious adverse effects and cause cardiovascular injuries, and describe the risk as significant. If we speak in terms of probabilities, to an objective eye, both causes seem equally likely/unlikely at the moment.

Personally, I think that there is a number of factors at play – one or both mentioned above, plus genetics and/or lifestyle etc. Engaging in an argument of whether it is infection or vaccines will not lead anywhere. It is not as clear cut and it is too soon for that. We can however dismiss a number of other standalone factors, as it is easy to disprove causal relationships between them and the observed phenomenon.

Why is 'experts' in quotes? Significant risk of vaccine causing cardiovascular effects? This is a claim without foundation.

If you are going to make such a claim and talk of probabilities, provide data or you are just spreading anti vax innuendo.

Why are you pretending they are the same 'experts'?

To talk of 'experts' in quotes without qualification is deliberate muddying of the waters, so spare us claims of 'an objective eye'.

Have you seen the difference between an excess mortality figure before and after it is age and population demographic adjusted? It is a significant difference.

It is not 'implausible'. It is an essential action taken in order to make comparisons across years.

Read the post that I was replying to to get the context. 🙄

Yes.

That was the outstanding takeaway.

Both were fairly fit and active.. Yes very old but very simplistic to say they were end of life.

Sure why bother about vaccinating or taking care of elderly relatives at all, if that is your thinking?

The point is that elderly people do not retain immunity, nor are they able to replicate antibodies themselves.

Hence the need for over 65s to get boosters that younger fitter people do not necessarily need.

That is why that age group turns up in hospital.

That is a mean put down to somebody trying to explain something to you,

And shows that you don't know how to listen when someone is decent enough to take the time to reply.

Yeh, carry on.

Not in the slightest. By their logic if one article in the entire world covered excess deaths my point was invalid. Its hairsplitting and being deliberately obtuse.

You didn't show anything. You "just asked a question". That doesn't prove the premise.

There is a link to minor myocarditis. Nothing to indicate a link to increased risk of cardiovascular issues causing death.

And to your point about - maybe the vaccine should have protected against covid induced heart issues. Well, we don't know. It could have made the difference between the person dying of covid and been left with long covid with a future higher risk of death.

The Guardian is one of the most read newspapers / websites in these parts. You said NOBODY was asking the questions. I easily disproved your claim with a few seconds googling. The similar BBC article has already been listed on the thread. These are major news sites and one of them was written by a public health expert. There is nothing obtuse about it, and it is utterly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Covid vaccine causing cardiac conditions like myocarditis and pericarditis after first and less after 2nd dose has been proven but is in tiny amounts compared to the damage done to all organs including the heart by Covid infection itself. This is an article about a more recent study showing the numbers are even smaller post booster dose.

Nobody is ignoring or hiding this. It is stated on the vaccine information and those at highest risk are advised to take it easy (eg no training) for a few days post vaccination

This is not a new phenomenon. Flu vaccines carry a similar risk but the Covid vaccines reach a much larger demographic so its effects are more noticeable.

There are many very well known and accredited studies on both sides. There are also articles which have been roundly debunked coming from antivax / CT sites which not only misrepresent the data but also the results. Many of these have been withdrawn.

On the point of odyssey's excellent posts ( a lot more patient than me!) he /she gives examples of studies which you dismissed out of hand.

Now I could easily produce many other studies and articles from everywhere and go to the trouble of posting them here, and have done before, but why when you and others are not even reading them without dismissng them out of hand.

At least bad2thebone had the grace to listen to what odyssey was saying.

@odyssey06 great posts!

I never said that at all. Yes age is the overwhelming factor in the lack of immunity , but all things being equal a booster could help. By 78% apparently against severe disease .

Vaccine effectiveness in older people wanes about 28 days after it has been given but is very effective against severe disease and death .

And yes the new bivalent vaccine is the best thing around now , I do agree with you, corcaigh ! 😁

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220929/COVID-19-booster-shots-essential-for-maintaining-long-term-immunity-against-infection-in-older-adults.aspx

Edited to add link .