Home heating automation

I use Tado this long time now, I like its reliability and comprehensive app features. Some are wary of its cloud based OS, if you've an Internet outage, you've no app access (though I think it still operates manually, or with Homekit on apple ios). Internet outages the least of our smart heating worries, power cuts a bigger risk. No power, no boiler, gas or oil. Plenty of thumbs up on this forum for Drayton also. Hive heavily installed by some utilities as part of switching promotions, but the utilities dirtied their bib by pushing single zone stats into existing 2 zone homes. Hive TRVs were late to the party, appear to be Chinese Tuya Zigbee devices. Some bad press about calibration and learning, room temperatures not matching settings. Further bad press in the UK where they are going to obsolete the Hive hub for a new model in 2023, it'll cost you £30 for the new hub, maybe €40 here? Other systems I've experienced meddling with are EPH, not smart but seemingly popular with plumbers as preconfigured and paired. Heatmiser in a lot of new house installs, again not particularly clever, but good looking on the wall, and works locally offline, the new owner optionally buying the hub on move in and installing the app. I've installed Nest when it first came out in a house in Holland seven years ago. it worked really well, had its own learning and predictive algorithms, but the product never advanced into multi zone or TRV territory. Looks great though. Its horses for courses I suppose, just keep reading reviews and reports. Drayton or Tado? Daddy or Chips?

Yes, and yes. Changing the valve body from a screw down type to a pin push TRV type is only moderate DIY difficulty, and a relatively quick job for a plumber. For a number of valve changes he might drain the system, for a single valve he might freeze the upstand pipe, or in a sealed system a partial drain will create a head vacuum as the water pulls down, this can make it possible to quickly swap a valve with little water loss. This method also works in a vented system by using tank and overflow plugs. I've no idea of the cost, other than the hardware, which is trivial as a trv valve body is maybe €7-10, less for a bulk trade purchase.

Do you have a wall thermostat Upstairs.

Does your controller have separate timing for Upstairs, or is al CH under control of a single timer.

Can you add an image of the UFH thermostats, model no if possible. If you could pop the cover and show the wiring that would be great. I'll comment more when you answer, but at this stage I see no reason why you can't install at least partial Tado control.

OK, the only other question, does the CH timing also affect downstairs UFH, or is this entirely controlled by the five stats, with no timer element. I'm assuming the latter, that the downstairs heating is always active, as UFH is a not that responsive to timed interval heating. Having said that it may well be under the influence of the timer also, with the stats providing the individual temperature via manifold valve control per zone, but not the firing of the boiler. This is important to know, as it determines the independence of the UHF zones from the upstairs timing.

So, a Tado starter system with extension kit, or a Drayton wiser two channel kit will be ideal to replace your Siemens 2 channel controller. With Tado, the ext. kit receiver is used to connect wirelessly to the Tado wall stat. As you don't have a general upstairs zone stat, this is ideal. You will now have timed/temperature control of whichever area you install your Tado stat, (Master bed, landing) and the temperature of the other rooms will be capped by their respective mechanical stats. If the radiator in the location of the Tado stat has a mechanical TRV on it, it should be opened high or fully, otherwise the area may not heat sufficiently to reach the Tado scheduled temperature. HW timing will now be handled by the HW timer of the Tado app. Your next step if you want will be to replace the mechanical TRVs with smart TRVs. This will give individual control of each room. The TRV located in the stat area can also be replaced with a smart TRV, and can be configured to use the master stat as the temperature measuring device for just that TRV. Now you will have fully independent control of upstairs heating.

Downstairs, assuming that the UFH is not timed by the Tado controller, you can continue to uses the 5 mechanical stats, or replace each with a wired in place Tado smart stat. This will give you full timing and temperature control of UHF rooms. Tado are deemed suitable to manage UFH heating profiles, the stats will manage the heat up patterns to optimally achieve the temperatures set on the stats. The existing room stats were standard mechanical stats, and did not have underfloor temperature sensors, so it is possible to replace them with Tado without compromising the existing UFH response. So your shopping list is;

Tado wireless starter kit.

Then you can do either or both further upgrades

Five Tado TRVs to the upper rads to give individual room heating control. These should fit directly the existing heat merchant generics.

And/or

Five individual add on Wired Tado stats to give individual smart app control of each UFH room.

Both of these extras can be done a TRV or Stat at at a time, as the cost of this many stats and TRVs is significant.

If the UFH is controlled by the existing timer CH, then you might require a different approach to downstairs heating, as this would now be subject to the timing of the new Tado stat, but I'll comment on that when I know if my initial assumption was correct. Let me know when you emerge from this new rabbit hole.

In light of this info, you might just leave the upstairs CH and HW under the control of the existing controller and mechanical TRVs, as upstairs appears little used, and for downstairs just invest in a Tado wired starter kit plus as many additional wired stats as you wish to replace the existing mechanical ones. You might only wish to smart schedule and app control two or three out of the five, leaving the others on a general low setting.

Yeah , I seen those alright and sent on an email to them along with a couple of local suppliers. Drayton were not much use when asked simply said all major plumbing merchants should stock them.

Am I correct in saying unlike the Wiser which can handle two seperate wireless room stats (upstairs/ downstairs) and hotwater so does the 3CH the tado can only one wireless wall stat? Thanks

Hi Dezell, still waiting for plumber to do my heating, but with prime day upon us, can you recommend one of the Tado systems for my setup after Google nest thermostats install. You have a great write up for me, back on pages 127, would the wireless one work and the just add some TVRs to it? Could you link the TVR you recommend?

also, so I need to drain the radiators to install these, getting mixed answers online

thanks

BobbyT28

Thanks, I’m heavily invested in the Google nest ecosystem so I think I’ll hang onto the nest. Cheers for the reply.

seems like if I introduce the tado, it’ll get messy. Just thought it would be a little simpler!

Let me have a read of 127, I'll be back 🤖

Doesn't make a difference to the TRV side of it I'd think.

Ha, I'm (potentially) lost. It seems like you are giving the detail of why OT would be bad or unusable in some Thermostat and TRV combos (Tado?), but I could be reading it wrong! (D'oh!)

I probably should have replied with greater detail myself to Bobby about why not having OT won't matter greatly except in terms of efficiency.

The main mention of OpenTherm in the link I included, which I think prompted Bobby's question, is with regards to compensation which is a Nest feature and which you've explained better than I ever could.

OP's boiler doesn't have OpenTherm but I think these Energie TRVs anyway will have no direct connection to the boiler and communicate only with the Nest so if they did have OT it wouldn't matter due to how these work. (Which I think you stated, so perhaps I needlessly clarifying ha).

The review below also indicates their own Thermostat doesn't support OpenTherm either.

It does seem they don't have the ability to call for heat (again reflects what you said) and only "follow" a thermostat. Essentially they only allow you to have a room cooled to a lower temperature than is being output by the Nest by shutting off/lowering a specific rad.

Review with details here:

Based on my reading of this they suit Bobby's needs if all is needed is the ability to stop some rooms from heating as much (for example unoccupied Bedroom, Utility room late at night etc.)

It won't allow Bobby to heat a room specifically when it gets cold outside of setting a very detailed schedule on each TRV to predict use:

TRV-Bed set to 22deg between 22:00 and 00:00

TRV-Kitchen set to 17deg between 22:00 and 00:00

TRV-Sitting Room set to 20deg between 22:00 and 00:00

Nest, set to heat between 22:00 and 00:00 up to 22deg.

The main issue seems to be the need for two apps and how fiddly it would be getting your schedule right.

FYI, my reading of your previous reply to Bobby was that if they wanted to add TRVs they should go for the Tado. I Think Bobby misread it as being something that can be (easily) integrated with the Nest afterward instead of how you meant it (don't go for the Nest at all if you want TRVs).

Hi All, as always I really appreciate your adviser and input. If I can take everything back for a bit and explain exactly what I have currently and what I would like to achieve. I currently have a volkera Boiler that needs to be replaced.

what I have:

one zone and no control of heating while away, no control of heating water without having to heat all the radiators too!!

what I want to achieve:

have a smarter heating system integrated into my smart home. be able to control heating while away as in turn heating on and off, set temperature. Also to be able to trigger the boiler to heat the water without having to heat all radiators, also I was hoping to be able to heat individual rooms when I wanted and was thinking that this is where the tvrs would come into play.

if at the end of all this I end up with Google nest thermostat, being able to turn heating on and off while away and being able to heat water for showers then I’ll be happy with that. I was just hoping to be able to do individual rooms too but that’s that a massive issue if it can’t be done.

What does that sound like and @WildCardDoW & @deezell will that be achieve able with the boiler I will have (when the plumber gets the time grrr) and the nest thermostat ?

thanks again for all the input as always

BobbyT28

Can I ask for some opinions too?

I've moved into a A rated new build, however the developer didn't allow any changes so I am stuck with whatever they put in.

I have a proper Home Assistant set up and Shelly EMs (and Zigbee2MQTT set up, so zigbee throughout the house), so I don't want to go anywhere near the hot water - it's efficient as it is, and even the weekly hight temp cycle runs at 3AM which is on my nighly cheap rate.

I have a A2W Heatpump for hot water and heating with 2 zones (2 floors) and radiators with TRVs (mechanical). The 2 zones are managed by 2 wired wall thermostats which have temperature control and scheduling. That's it. No API nor smart abilities. When the thermostats call for heat, a valve opens in the cylinder and the heatpump manages the water temperature etc (which work fine and efficiently). However, my missus works shifts, and I work hybrid. We don't have a set schedule.

Home Assistant can tell if we are at home, which floor we're in, and even the expected weather. Is there a replacement smart thermostat (Zigbee or Wifi) that I can integrate with HASS, so I can basically control the heating demand by adjusting the temp a couple of degrees up or down based on HASS automations (and node red)? The existing thermostats are E91.713 Touch Screen Programmable Thermostats, as far as I can see.

E91.713 is a cheap Chinese wall stat,€25-30, with a built in timer. It does have the option for an external temperature sensor embedded in the floor for Underfloor Heating. You don't say if your downstairs is UFH, but UFH is a good match for heat pumps, otherwise you probably have bigger rads because of the cooler flow from a heat pump. In an A rated house, rad output requirement would be Iess. I shudder to think of the current electricity bills for heatpumps where they've been installed in C rated houses or less.

If you've all rads, then you can replace both stats with smart ones. Tado are ideal as they are wired, and will fit over the base plates of your current pair, using just 2 wires. If you have UFH downstairs, and that stat is fitted with an underfloor sensor, you could still change the stat, as the extra sensor is normally there just to prevent excess floor temperature from high temperature sources such as gas boilers.

Tado is compatible with UFH heating responses. Tado is also integrated with Home Assistant, temperature display and adjustment, and, afaik, presence response (geofencing) and Tado weather sense (it knows its cold outside, so will tweak the boiler/heatpump response profile). From an ordinary users point of view, a pair of Tado wired stats will give you all you need in the associated Tado App. The Geofence is very good, and would work well in your case with no set pattern of who's home or away. It just uses your location to turn the schedule to Away mode, which is highly configurable, wherever both are absent from the home by a user set distance in km.

When you've Tado up and running on its own platform, no reason why you can't link it to your own preferred smart control. I find it rare to have to boost or adjust the schedule, I have it the same summer or winter, it just sits idle in the summer as scheduled temperatures are never exceeded, and slowly kicks in as the weather worsens. Sometimes herself feels the need to boost up the kitchen, normally at 19° out of hours, and she can shout at Alexa, or the Google mini, tap the phone app, or just give the TRV a twist, for a preset time boost set within the App. (She can shout at me, I just answer, "put on your coat").

You can add Tado TRVs to all your upstairs rads and have total control within that zone. Any adjustment of a TRV, manually, app, HA, is relayed to the wall stat to turn on the zone. Individual devices in the Tado system connect to the Bridge using a the 6LoWPAN protocol, which is not visible to Zigbee/Zwave hubs. The bridge itself is connected to your lan and communicates the Tado environment to your other smart home systems.

So a Tado wired starter kit, and an extra wired stat. Install is DIY, Tado will even email you the wiring connections if you use their configurator, though I've not used it myself.