Govt to do 'everything' to prevent evictions - McEntee

Yurt2 · 10-10-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726371#Comment_119726371

Landlords were "leaving the market" because they were getting record high prices for their asset.

A landlord in current conditions who puts out paying tenants for it to sit on the market as interest rates increase is a bonehead.

Landlords "fleeing" the market will actually moderate as prices are going to drop.

The béal bocht from certain quarters of the landlord lobby is never ending, there's always a whinge about something.

10-10-2022 3:29pm

Its a poor attempt by the government to shore rentals for the short term. Most feel that the house market is at its peak and investment properties are being sold left right and center. With a ban on evictions for six months the properties will be near impossible to sell until next summer, pushing the impending rental crisis a bit further out. I'm sure the government will start hurting soon when all the small landlords are gone, the amount of tax they are collecting from them is colossal, the professional landlords are playing less than half the tax in most cases. The RPZ will also have the effect of keeping rents high as most wont reduce them as they will be locked in at a lower level for years then.

Yurt2 · 10-10-2022 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726414#Comment_119726414

As for "investment properties are being sold left right and centre" you're witnessing the last of the summer wine in the past couple of months.

Higher interest rates means gun-shy buyers. That's as close to a hard law of economics as you can get. Cheap international money is drying up, upgraders and first time buyers will (and are already are) sit on their hands. The only players left are the state, and money isn't exactly coming cheap any more for them either.

I'll say again, a landlord looking to sell now and forgoe rental income would be a fool. They'll end up as price-takers for local authorities purchasing.

MrMusician18 · 10-10-2022 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726268#Comment_119726268

While that feeling is in the air, we don't actually have that data to determine that house prices are falling.

House prices tend to be quick to rise and slow to fall as you have to convince vendors that this lower price is the best that can achieved. That typically takes time.

SwimClub · 10-10-2022 3:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726401#Comment_119726401

So your recommendation is to base housing policy around someone who bought in 2014?

What about someone who bought in 2007?

Yurt2 · 10-10-2022 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726460#Comment_119726460

I'm willing to bet the next daft quarterly report will show the first shoots of what I'm describing.

By mid way next year, it will be in full swing and landlords foolish enough to sell will end up as price-takers for local authorities.

Donald Trump · 10-10-2022 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726468#Comment_119726468

Relax and have another go at reading it. There might be someone there with you who can help you with it. I have no idea where you are getting that from

SwimClub · 10-10-2022 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726406#Comment_119726406

Well we will be hearing less and less as they are all abandoning ship. Maybe the problem is as you say there are too many stupid people in the market and when they all leave things will improve immeasurably.

timmyntc · 10-10-2022 3:50pm

If being a landlord is so lucrative, why arent the posters in this thread investing in property to rent out?

Sure its a great source of income and no way is it high risk in this country, landlords only leave the market because of high house prices (lol)

The Spider · 10-10-2022 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119723137#Comment_119723137

It does have an impact on property rights, a ban on evictions is a ban on selling, you can’t sell a property with tenants except to other landlords

Yurt2 · 10-10-2022 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726481#Comment_119726481

The party is over for now on increasing house prices as long as interest rates keep rising (and they will for the next 18 months or so at least). As night follows day, that means less landlords selling because there are less buyers that can afford a mortgage, and cheap investment fund money is gone.

If landlords want to commit an act of financial self harm and sell now, who is the state to stop them. But I give them a bit more credit for their intelligence - they won't sell on the scale you're describing because to do so would mean having the asset sit on the market for an indeterminate period of time with no one in it. The only buyers left standing will be the state and the landlords will end up as price takers.

SwimClub · 10-10-2022 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726495#Comment_119726495

From what I can gather from the rambling posts it has something to do with the famine.

Strumms · 10-10-2022 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119723940#Comment_119723940

No, but an ongoing business agreement, say you do some gardening once a month for me, you haven’t been paid in X months, you can as you wish STOP providing me with your services… as and when you feel like it. A landlord isn’t of this ability..

if a tenant consistently isn’t paying anything after X duration, the landlord should be of the ability after a fair and reasonable amount of time, that they can evict the tenant(s) turned squatter.

SwimClub · 10-10-2022 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726512#Comment_119726512

Having an asset sitting on the market with no-one in it and no income is debtably better than having an asset with a lodger in it and with no income.

These are the decisions that people are going to make, I don't see it being as clear cut as you make out.

Getting rid of any mortgage and unwanted landlord status might be appealing to many given the way things are going and the precedent of becoming the patsies for the housing crisis.

spaceHopper · 10-10-2022 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726202#Comment_119726202

The two I've spoken to are happy to take the high prices but it's gov policy that made up their mind, one is taking a loss on one apartment, they have others and will break even or small proffit. They just want out. It's all to easy the say it's accidental LLs and high prices but really the crash was 2008 anybody who was caught with a peak price will have made enough capital payments to be gotten out 5 years ago. This is an exit of investors and they won't be replaced. It's going to do nothing good for renters only make their life harder

steddyeddy · 10-10-2022 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119723338#Comment_119723338

Choice is not a word I would associate with the Irish rental market.

Donald Trump · 10-10-2022 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726538#Comment_119726538

You need to get a grasp on the fact that real property is not treated, nor has it been treated at any stage over the last few centuries, in the same manner as chattel property. No matter how many posts you or anyone else make on boards.ie in 2022, it will not change that fact and it exists for good reason

This is not a new concept. It might be new to you, but ignorance of reality is not a justification for demanding special treatment.

If you hand someone else possession of your property, that is your decision and you did so willingly, even if that was in ignorance of the potential difficulties which could arise. There are mechanisms for you to recover your property but you will need to go through that process. Expect that to take time.

You may even have have heard the expression "possession is nine-tenths of the law" which is not to be taken in the literal sense, but should hint at some of the reasons why you might have difficulty retrieving possession of your property in general. As mentioned above, it is even more so for real property.

It's not a new thing. People who are highlighting it and complaining about it as if it is are merely highlighting their own ignorance.

Donald Trump · 10-10-2022 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726586#Comment_119726586

Did you ever consider that maybe some of those renters might purchase said property which is up for sale? Buy the property, mortgage repyaments half of what they were paying in rent, take on a lodger under the rent-a-room scheme for additional tax free income. Happy days

The Spider · 10-10-2022 4:27pm

This is hilarious, property rights are guaranteed under the constitution, any eviction ban won’t happen, and if by some miracle it does, expect court cases straight away, seriously anyone saying sell with tenants in situ doesn’t know what they’re talking about, because court case straight away, “government policy prevented me achieving the market value of my property”, and boom government is liable for costs, floodgates open and even people who had no intention of selling can say they were going to sell but couldn’t because of tenants etc.

As for people comparing this to the banks not repossessing, huge difference the owner owns the house with a loan from the bank, that means under the constitution they’re protected as a property owner unless they decide to sign it over.

renters aren’t they’re paying for a service

only way you can have an eviction ban is to dilute property rights and that needs to go to a referendum, good luck with that in a country where over 70% own their own properties

Donald Trump · 10-10-2022 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726495#Comment_119726495

Perhaps some of them do their homework and consider the downsides of taking on a venture before investing, rather than jumping in headfirst and expecting a bailout later on if they can deliver a sufficiently poor mouth sob story? Or they might be invested in other areas where they have an advantage in managing it.

I'm sure, for example, that being a nightclub owner is a lucrative business, but it doesn't mean I think I could just get a loan and go run out and blindly buy a nightclub and cross my fingers and hope it works out. If someone does that and comes on here whinging about the fact that their nightclub is failing and they don't know how to manage it and looking for government to change rules to suit them, it isn't going to stop me from pointing out that owning a nightclub is a lucrative business.

You have this attitude among some of these amateur landlords that they expect to be rewarded, based on their ability to go to a bank and filll out some forms for a loan, followed by the ability to outbid another buyer for a (perhaps already overvalued) house. Those aren't exactly unique skills commanding lucrative compensation.

Donald Trump · 10-10-2022 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726642#Comment_119726642

As for people comparing this to the banks not repossessing, huge difference the owner owns the house with a loan from the bank, that means under the constitution they’re protected as a property owner unless they decide to sign it over.

Don't give up the day job

blanch152 · 10-10-2022 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726456#Comment_119726456

That depends on when they bought and what the capital gain is like.

If there are difficult tenants, who are not going to pay, and maybe damage the place, selling up now is a good idea if evictions are to get harder.

It is an inescapable law of social science that the more difficult you make it to evict tenants who don't pay or damage property, the less rental housing is available.

timmyntc · 10-10-2022 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726665#Comment_119726665

If as you say people in this thread are not becoming landlords because they "do their homework and consider the downsides" then why in the hell do you think anyone else would? Why would anyone, either institutional or individual invest in irish property as a landlord if it is not a profitable enough venture for the risk involved?

Donald Trump · 10-10-2022 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726687#Comment_119726687

No Timmy. Some people do their homework and decide it is not for them. Some do their homework and decide it is for them. You won't hear those complaining because they understand what they are getting into and are able to manage it. They may, for example, place money aside as a buffer in case they hit a hard time. (As opposed to a poster above who requests mortgage payment breaks on their investment property months in advance in order to go on a family holiday)

The third category is the people who don't do their homework but blindly jump into it "because everyone else is doing it" or some other similar reason. Those are the ones that you hear whinging later on when they learn the hard way about things that can go wrong.

Risk is subjective. Person A could, for example, buy a couple of houses in the morning, pay for them up front and then rent them out. If the renters stopped paying, A would be pissed but they wouldn't lose the houses. Whereas Person B might stretch themselves to the limit, get two mortgages, buy two houses. If their rent stops coming in, then they are in a fair pickle.

MrMusician18 · 10-10-2022 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726472#Comment_119726472

Daft only refers to asking prices and is a better measure of sentiment rather than actual hard price information. A couple of houses I'm watching are currently grossly overpriced and I'm waiting for the inevitable drop.

For real price information, we only have the PPR to go by and that is really out of date by the time it's published.

We actually need a lot of reform around the housing market and regulations around the information provided to buyers and sellers.

Yurt2 · 10-10-2022 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726542#Comment_119726542

You're puffing-up the amount of individuals in the private rental sector that are essentially there squatting. 99 out of 100 pay their rent and they're paying through the nose at the moment.

Your marginal tales of people sitting in the property refusing to pay a dime and the landlord throwing the towel in doesn't move the needle on the broader story of the market and reality: a landlord with relaible tenants lodging money in their bank account every month would be a bonehead to sell in current higher interest rate conditions. Buyers are drying up faster than the Caspian Sea.

The tempreture has changed and you'll "fleeing the market" slogan will have to change with it, because it's not credible.

SwimClub · 10-10-2022 5:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726889#Comment_119726889

You also have to factor in that this is all against a backdrop of an election in a few years with a good chance Sinn Fein are getting in power, everyone with a rental property I've spoken to is terrified of what SF will enact, selling with tenants in situ will become a fixed requirement etc. There might be some illiquidity and a 10% drop in the near term but things could be a lot worse for private landlords in a few years. The fact there is talk of luring landlords to tie in with tax credits for 5-10 year leases highlights the fears out there. Again if it's such a great prospect, why are these needed?

fliball123 · 10-10-2022 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726889#Comment_119726889

yurt you only have to look at the amount of properties to rent that are available if you theory was true we would of seen this going up and its not

Yurt2 · 10-10-2022 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726992#Comment_119726992

Ah the SF boogyman.

Landlords with their mortgages cleared are creaming it and are going nowhere. Other landlords got out when the going was good with house prices, more power to them.

But the endless whinge to get soft-touch tax treatment for passive income that is lower than the payroll workers paying the rent is bad taste. That's exactly what a cohort within landlords want, and they're pretty shameless about it. The "fleeing the market" bumper sticker slogan and threat will have to be retired now. Because "fleeing the market" is exactly the opposite what a landlord will be doing for the next 18 - 24 months. Unless they want to sell to the local authority at a discount.

Yurt2 · 10-10-2022 6:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119727004#Comment_119727004

I'm not claiming it's going up. I'm aware. But the "fleeing the market because of regulations" was always bulldust. Landlords getting out over the last 24-36 months or so were doing so because the going was extremely good with house prices. The regulations broken record was because the landlord lobby smelled they could get favourable tax treatment out of the government. Same thing happens every year in the budget negotiation cycle.

That has all changed with higher interest rates. Gun-shy first time buyers and upgraders, no more cheap money for investment funds, and the state waiting in the long grass as the last buyers standing (well, along with cash buyers who will be thin on the ground). "Fleeing the market" and threatening to hold renters and the exchequer hostage doesn't work so well when there's nowhere to flee.

Govt to do 'everything' to prevent evictions - McEntee

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