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Govt to do 'everything' to prevent evictions - McEntee

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    I think it was a combination of both the high price for sales and the fact that you could lose the income for up to 4 years and have your property returned to you in ruins and a massive bill to refurbish was the other side of the scales. As for getting favorable deals sure the government have set up schemes that you can give them the property for up to 25 years and they the government do all the work for you and give you back the property in one piece at the end. So that does not tally up with what your saying there is more government goodies for renting than selling and small landlords are still running for the hills



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,039 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    "There's a lot less "fleeing the market" when house prices moderate or drop"

    Not true. After the 2008 crash a ton left the market.

    In fairness this isn't LLs complaining about evictions. Its everyone else. Hence the thread title.

    If there isn't an issue there no need to change the legislation (again).



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I think it was a combination of both the high price for sales and the fact that you could lose the income for up to 4 years and have your property returned to you in ruins and a massive bill to refurbish was the other side of the scales

    But mostly due to high house prices as opposed to marginal boogyman stories of crack dens, squatters for 4 years etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,039 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If it was BS you'd have LL entering the market to replace the once leaving. And you don't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    After 2008? For anyone who was holding down a job in Ireland in the few years after the crash, things were pretty good for renters and I saw scant evidence of too many "fleeing". Who were they selling to? Banks stopped lending for about half a decade. I remember it well as I was renting at the time. A modest income got you far, rents went through the floor.

    The language of "fleeing" is hilarious as well. As if landlords were like 19th century Jews trying to escape a pogrom in the Russian Empire. And the baddies are renters trying to hunt them down to give them their money, but they're too busy trying to escape to the nearest Sherry Fitzerald office the craythurs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Well its not just a boogeyman story is it. It did and has happened and will continue happening. I do think high prices did contribute as I say it was both in tandem. If you have a mortgage on a property and the idea of going 4 years + without getting rent and having a hefty refurbishing bill at the end would of put the willies up a lot of landlords. I know if I had a property to rent I would of been selling over that point regardless of the high prices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭dublin49


    single property landlords should be discouraged and we need to move to a more professional scenario where the landlords won't or cannot out of the blue decide to sell and uproot renters who have put down roots in a community.Investment funds like solid predictable returns and we should encourage that type of investment/development in Ireland.If you pay your rent and adhere to lease conditions you should be able to plan years ahead without fear of losing your home.Failure to move to this model will mean we continue to have this fixiation with home ownership that appears unsustainable currently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The notional story of 4 plus years without rent is absolutely a boogyman story. I appreciate that it does happen (do you have an example of non paying tenants overholding for 4 years btw?), much like car accidents and burglaries happen. But it's a marginal story and of little relevance to the macro-picture of landlords cashing-in on record-high house prices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    You see if they are in the rent for life model they are uprooted but if we had a properly functioning market they would either buy or be in social housing not renting from the likes of me into their 50's



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Marginal or not the fact that it has happened and there is no reform to stop it happening in the future is more of enough of a deterrent. Look the numbers don't back up what your saying.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,039 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well you don't know. There are no stats on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,039 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The market is moving to "professional" scenario. Its partly what accelerating the crisis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    All very true. An unspoken large amount of attraction to the rental sector though is the potentially large upside on capital gains upon selling the property after x number of years.

    This generates a cultural problem ongoing for years where the property lobby want a charter for ever-higher rents and also ever-higher house prices. They have an eye on both and relentlessly lobby the government to maximise both. The problem comes when the squeeze gets put on the payrolled worker needed to keep this show on the road and they can't escape it.

    These people pay taxes and vote too, and their interests are in direct conflict with the interests of the property lobby. It's a pressure cooker, and the political situation has probably tipped in the favour of the latter as they are so numerous now. For the longest time, the property lobby could expect to get a generous hearing from government.

    For a good number of years you could expect to spend 5 to 10 years in the rental sector and resonably expect to escape it - no longer, and the political picture has changed with it. What we're seeing now is landlords coming to terms with a new political reality, and they'll need to get smarter than threatening "we'll sell up!".



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Well if I don't know, and you don't know, all we're left with is boogyman anecdotes about 4 year overholders under every rock.

    Or we could acknowledge the reality that the house price index peaked above Celtic Tiger levels this summer before the nastiness of high interest rates kicked in - which is exactly the reason why we saw landlords cashing-in.

    Fun-time for house prices is drawing to a close for the next 18 to 24 months, and this will be reflected in landlords electing to "flee", finding nowhere to go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,039 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Landlords have been leaving long before this summer. We do have Stats on that from the RTB. So peak price had nothing to do with it. Interest rates are not high yet. So thats not the reason either. Most Landlords have one property and they have for a least the length of the mortgage. They aren't constantly buying and selling property as your inferring.

    I have no idea what you mean by having nowhere to go. What does that even mean.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    This government and the opposition patently share a common goal of dispossessing Irish property owners and ensuring that the rental sector is controlled by the state and large foreign corporations (often UK based and benefitting from Brexit Tories) operating tax free, although that might be giving them too much credit to see a plan in this). That will likely work as more and more will just see that even if the property market is softening, it's better than putting up with persecution from the government. Others will carry on, not paying too much heed to a destructive and incompetent government, but it just means rental rate will continue to soar even as the house purchase market softens, and a landlord will be a harder sort. What has Ireland done to deserve a government dedicated to blowing up the property sector having wrecked tourism (anyone who comes to rip off Ireland is a fool now)?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I never said that landlords weren't leaving before the summer. I explicitly said that landlords have been heading for the door for the last 36 months or so while the going was good with house prices. Incidentally, about the mark where Celtic Tiger peak purchasers finally started exiting negative equity.

    Ask someone whose mortgage got 400 euro more expensive over the course of two weeks if interest rates are not high yet.

    The tempreture has changed, you'll catch up. The next quarter will prove me right, and you wrong. And by the time Q3 rolls around next year - you'll be singing from the same hymn sheet pretending this exchange never happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Who's dispossesing Irish property owners?

    This is silly-billy stuff. A time-limited eviction freeze (which may not even come to pass) is not in the same solar system as dispossesing property owners.



  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    Pages and pages of needless debate...it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tedious and tiresome. How long has it been the case that it takes more than year to get a non-paying tenant out? it's like that years.

    Landlords are leaving the market because it's top of the selling market and also because SF are flagged as introducing private property unfriendly policies if they get in, so now is surely the best time to jump.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,039 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I remember 8 and 12% interest rates. Current rates are nothing. There's articles about landlords leaving as far back as 2016 if not further. All that time rents are rising house prices were rising. All that's happened is the rate of leaving has increased and supply is tighter every year.

    People have been predicting falls and interest rate rising every year for the last decade or so. Like a broken clock they will be right eventually. They might finally win a game of snap this time thanks to Brexit and Putin. As you say they'll claim they called it.

    But call it every year and I guess you'll be right eventually.

    This is not our first eviction moratorium. I doubt it will be the last.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Look, I'm not the one claiming that landlords will en-masse "flee" the market when there's no one to sell to but the state, and it's already difficult enough this quarter. It's already in train. Good luck trying to sell a property if ECB interest rates go where many think they will. They will come under enormous pressure towards the end of the year to go for aggressive hikes. You're engaged in magical thinking.

    Landlords are far less likely to sell going forward than they were in the last 24-36 months. They won't get anywhere near the price they want. Those foolish enough to go to the market will be back with their tail between their legs offering the property back to the previous tenants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,039 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭thinkabouit



    This intervention will make it even worse.

    Better solution would be to offer evicted people full welfare benefits, hotel and board like they are doing for every other Nationality with the hand out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Every link you're posting lends creedance to what I'm saying.

    It's a law as reliable as the tides, as interest rates go up, the ability of retail buyers to afford mortgages goes down. And it's already happening.

    Landlords looking to "flee because of regulations" are going to have a very hard time doing so, or they'll have to take a haircut, most likely when selling to a local authority who will be among the last men standing.

    Your shouting at the moon. Landlords won't be fleeing anywhere, they'll be very glad of the tenants locked-in at high-water-mark rents. The lobby will have to come up with a new slogan when going on Claire Byrne to bellyache.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,407 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    She’s a serious dimwit alright but a very dangerous one given the serious brief she (supposedly) holds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    You handed it over with terms and conditions as part of a business agreement... you need to get a grasp of that fact... one person is reneging on that agreement for any reason and it should not be the owner that looses out..



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,433 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Oke dokey. You fire ahead and try all those arguments with the Court and you will surely have your non-paying tenant out in a week. Don't put any pass on all those other eejits who say it took them longer. They just didn't possess your superior intellect and legal knowledge, nor did the lawyers representing them. The judges on those Courts probably also didn't have as good an understanding as you do either. Perhaps you could offer your services to the Court to educate some of the judges? To help them get a "grasp of the facts"?

    In reality, it's people with attitudes like yours who are the ones who end up whinging. The reality of the situation can be explained to you 100 times but you'll still make up in your head the way you think it should be and proceed, only to possibly learn a hard lesson at the end of it.


    There are still 17,000 mortgages in Ireland which have been non-performing since 2008!!!! 14 years and they haven't caught up. Let's see what happens when more fall behind as rates rise! Will the same posters crying out for zero tolerance on kicking a person out of their house also be on here pleading for leniency for what would be a purely financial and commercial consequence were their loan to be called in when they fall behind? Giving out about so-called "vulture funds" who use non-payment as an excuse to trigger a repossession?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit



    The cumulative effect (and this measure is surely unconstitutional so this kite likely won't fly) of measures and government attitude to Irish landlords will just simply cause more to quit the sector leaving the field to foreign investors the government favours. It's a factual surmise of what's happening.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Foreign Investors are aren't so flush with cheap money any more. Daffney and Dave from the chipper Irish high street banks ads can't afford the interest rates any more.

    My point is a simple one, and one that will crystalize and become obvious to all in the next few months: landlords who want to "flee" will have their units (particularly low quality stock) sitting on the market for months, like a middle-aged New York street hooker with a fag in her mouth. Local authorities will be the price-givers come the middle to back-end of next year. Mark it down, and don't forget to come back to me.

    Landlords will be damn glad of their reliable tenants. I know a lot of people have taken the kool aid with "regulations" whinges, but the hard fact is that landlords who left the sector over the last 3 years or so did so because of the high prices they could command, and fanny all to do with anything else. We had an 82 percent rise in the price of property since 2010 to July of this year. Rents went ballistic in the same timeframe. They had a good time, and I'd advise not losing any sleep for the hard-pressed Irish landlord. They were never hurting.

    The "regulations" and tax whinges were the noises of a sector that wants it every which way and is used to getting its way with government decision makers.

    And on the constitutional matter, a lot of people are literalists when it comes to the constitution, which is not how it's interpreted by the SC. It is a balance of rights document, and there is a common good provision in it. It remains to be seen.



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