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The Pushback against Leftism

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    But I'll take your comment at face value tho and ask you this: Can you envisage any scenario where the legal primary care givers should not be informed?

    Surely your life cannot be so sheltered that you think there can never be any problems here?

    Like I say, the article you posted was lacking details but high on sensationalism and is hardly a good starting point for any sort of serious discussion. But of course, you aren't interested in that, are you? Just like there has been little evidence to suggest you actually care about women's rights or childrens rights.

    You are fooling no one with this garbage you regurgitate from the internet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    No you aren't appalled, you just want to be seen as such. What allegation? The chest binders to young trans people? We know nothing of the scenario from the article.

    The article has nothing. It's full of sh!t reporting for the terminally gullible.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    More empty, meaningless obfuscation - seasoned with abuse (again), and tailored toward a complete and utter evasion of the subject matter at hand.

    Whataboutery on steroids.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Are you actually reading the same thread?

    It's very simple. You posted an article that literally had very few facts that got you all hot and bothered. I've played your game of q&a and now you won't answer mine.. and you talk about evasion and obfuscation! You are the absolute master of it!!

    Incidentally, if I have abused you, please report it as it saves cluttering up the thread. But really If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Let's take a closer look at what transpired at the Tavistock clinic - which led to 35 resignations of healthcare professionals within 3-years:

    The closure of the Tavistock transgender clinic is a prime example of how the tide has turned. Despite the stark warnings of whistleblowers and journalists, the Gender Identity Development Service (Gids) continued to administer potentially life-changing treatments to often vulnerable children. Then the paediatrician Dr Cass removed the cloak of virtue-signalling.

    Her interim report on Gids in February exposed a scandalous disregard for the welfare of children treated at the centre. She found that puberty blockers were given even when their effects weren’t properly understood and without adequate record keeping of the welfare of those children. It triggered people to ask a rather obvious question: why had it taken so long for the uncertainties and risks around the use of puberty blockers to be officially recognised?

    Have you any thoughts on this?

    Everyone else can see what has happened here: nothing short of a medical scandal.

    Now, inquiries are being held into both Mermaids and Stonewall; a pushback against leftism, you might call it.

    Last week, it emerged that one of Mermaids’ trustees, Dr Jacob Breslow, spoke at a conference hosted by an organisation that promotes services for paedophiles who need professional help. Dr Breslow stood down, releasing a statement saying: “I unequivocally condemn child sexual abuse”, but with Mermaids already facing investigation for giving children breast-binders behind their parents’ backs, common sense has prevailed at last.

    The Charity Commission is investigating the organisation, and the National Lottery has paused its funding.

    It's abundantly clear what has happened here.

    Society had a gun held to its head, with the very grave risk of being called transphobic and cancelled. As a result, these organizations operated carte blanche without criticism. Healthcare professionals have admitted being terrified to speak out in favour of what should medically take place for fear of being called transphobic. They then left the clinic, feeling that they had no choice.

    How you can not see the scandalous nature of what's been going on is astonishing.

    Is it wilful? Or do you simply not want to believe what's actually happening here?

    We're talking about the welfare of children here. But it seems you would rather take aim at me, or some nebulous characterization of me, rather than express concern about what has taken place at these trans clinics and charities.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,511 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You lost me at “fear of being called transphobic”

    abortionists receive bomb and death threats and get picked off in successful assassinations. And they still carry on bravely, for medicine

    where is the “fear of being called transphobic” categorically stated in this story?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, that's what the report into Tavistock concluded.

    Maybe it loses you, but the report is accurate and Tavistock was shut down precisely because it posed a hazard to children.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,960 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The Tavistok was systematically underfunded whilst demand rose exponentially. Treatment was inevitably going to be compromised in such a scenario and surprise surprise - that is the primary finding of the report. The recommendation was more treatment services over a greater geographical area. Harm was caused to some patients because resources were not available to offer an effective treatment service.

    So the report concluded exactly the opposite of what you want to claim it concluded. Now there's a surprise - NOT.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,393 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    If they can block all critical views, it means they have a protective bubble where their beliefs are considered valid and complete. If I were insecure about my personal beliefs, I'd probably do exactly the same thing. But as you say, it's pathetic.

    Yes thinking about that further that's exactly what is going on. They can make claims on twitter and the less people around to challenge them the better.

    So when these hate speech laws are ramped up won't they be able to utilize that to get accounts shut down as well for the same effect. First it starts with a survey, spin a rise in trans hate crime, link it to the press/twitter, lobby for hate speech laws, get them and have press/twitter shut down. Voila, no debate.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You clearly have not read the full coverage of the Dr Cass' report on the Tavistock clinic.

    You are misrepresenting the clinic as if to say, "Well, it was busy and so it was understaffed and bad decisions were made". If that were the full extent of the Tavistock report, then every hospital and clinic in the country would get shut down because they suffer from precisely the same problems.

    No, this wasn't about being understaffed or not having sufficient resources. The clinic was closed on far, far greater grounds than that!

    Here are just some of the major findings of the report:

    • The presentation of gender-distressed children has changed, for reasons that have not been adequately explored.
    • Gender dysphoria is not a unique presentation that should automatically and unquestioningly lead to clinical intervention.
    • The evidence base for an affirmation-only model is severely lacking. In other words, people just saying they are trans- is clinically questionable.
    • There is too little evidence to make any recommendations on hormone treatment. Hormone treatment was therefore overused without the backing of scientific evidence.
    • The best way to support young people experiencing gender distress has not been determined. The one-shot approach by the Tavistock to medicalise every patient was inappropriate.
    • Primary and secondary care staff have told Dr Cass that they feel under pressure to adopt an unquestioning affirmative approach and that this is at odds with the standard process of clinical assessment and diagnosis that they have been trained to undertake in all other clinical encounters (this matches what the healthcare professionals said, who claimed they could not act in a clinical capacity and felt forced to adopt an ideological line).
    • The reports notes that external pressures are harming clinical practice. Clinicians and others are afraid to speak up: the toxic nature of social engagement on this issue is stifling discussion. Dr Cass notes that "Social media […] can be seen to perpetuate unrealistic images of gender and set unhealthy expectations".
    • She goes on to note that, "GPs have expressed concern about being pressurised to prescribe puberty blockers or feminising/masculinising hormones after these have been initiated by private providers".
    • On sexuality and gender, Dr Cass reports that, "We have heard from young lesbians who felt pressured to identify as transgender male".
    • That detransitioners, who live with the irreversible effects of transition have no clear access to NHS services.
    • That even terminology is not agreed upon, "A lack of a conceptual agreement about the meaning of gender dysphoria hampers research, as well as NHS clinical service provision.”

    I could go on, but I'll stop here.

    What we are seeing here is not "...a busy clinic with not enough staff", but institutionalized ideology at the heart of the clinic; severely impairing the safeguarding of children, compromising patient safety, and undermining healthcare professionals through the application of pressure.

    That's not the only conclusions we can draw, but the above list of observations by the author of the inquiry is absolutely damning. That's why the clinic was closed down. Not because of the disingenuous pseudo-summary you want others here to take as fact.

    The same analysis will be conducted for Mermaids and their inappropriate practices. We will have to wait for the final report on that case in the meantime.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,960 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You could go on paraphrasing and misquoting the report - and you might even convince yourself that you are right. I personally won't be taking your word for a single thing since I have encountered your form of twisting the evidence.

    The report concludes that the solution to the problems at the Tavistock are more and better services for transgender children - not removal of treatment options for patients. Under resourcing lead to significant numbers of patient receiving delayed assessment and treatment which in turn caused significant harm. Thats a conclusion that I think all transgender people could overwhelmingly support.


    The old Tory adage been if you want to remove a service - underfund it first. Fortunately the NHS is independent of the Torey government when setting policy.

    Post edited by Shoog on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They were direct quotes, from the actual report - a report I personally linked to.

    You clearly did not read the report, yet had the confidence to summarize the report as if you did. You were called out on your lack of knowledge of the report. Your interpretation was not only wrong, it was disingenuous.

    You can keep claiming otherwise. You can continue to spread misinformation. But facts will always remain facts.

    Read the report. You'll find the above quotes in an instant.

    Now let's await the inquiry regarding Mermaids. No doubt it will be equally as appalling and equally as damning in its findings.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,960 ✭✭✭Shoog


    So do you dispute that the reports main recommendation was expansion of transgender treatment services with more regional centers ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nobody disputes that healthcare services couldn't be improved. In fact, what healthcare report wouldn't include that?

    The more healthcare provision in every area, the better. Cancer services need to be greater. Rheumatoid arthritis services need to be greater. All healthcare services need to be greater - and more effective, and more accurate, and in the best needs of every single patient. Who in the world wouldn't agree with that basic principle? It's an axiomatic reality across healthcare. But that's got almost nothing to do with the Tavistock report. At best, it's a peripheral commentary.

    Again, you are deliberately misrepresenting the Tavistock report.

    I have listed the concerns and analysis, as detailed by the actual report. I relayed the exact underlying reasons and concerns as to why the Tavistock clinic, specifically, was closed down.

    You tried (and failed) to pass off the Tavistock question as a lack of staff.

    You were called out on it.

    And everyone can see what the actual causes were, can verify those causes through the link I provided, and people can dismiss your deliberate - and disingenuous - misrepresentation of the situation.

    Keep digging.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,960 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Do you conclude that an expansion of transgender healthcare services will result in an increase or decrease in sex realignment surgeries ?

    I have been clear in saying that Tavistock fell down on the job because demand outstripped the ability to provide best practice services - and that is in total agreement with the conclusions of the report. The medical profession is not disputing the reality of transgenderism so offering more services to people presenting will undoubtedly increase the number of people accessing gender realignment treatments.

    This is the crucial point you are dancing around.

    What I dispute is that acknowledging the failing of Tavistock in some way supports you transphobic position - it does not.

    Its that problem of nuance again - and you inability to grasp it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nobody is saying healthcare provision should be decreased in this area - or any area. If anything, the report has demanded that more specialist care was required and that, for too many patients, they were fast-tracked on a "treatment path" that current medical evidence to date does not justify.

    You are completely denying the conclusions of the Tavistock report. Completely ignoring them. 100% denialism.

    Everyone can see what game you're playing here. But nobody is in any doubt about what the Tavistock report said. You can misrepresent it, but the report clearly states what problems exist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,960 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Does the report conclude that transgenderism is a fictional condition that should be treated as such. No.

    Your been disingenuous about your motives here, you don't believe that transgenderism is even possible so you are using the Tavistock report to attack the concept of appropriate treatment for transgender people. You know this is your real motivation. The Tavistock report is just a tool for your belief that transgenderism is a fiction and should not be treated up to and including surgery.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So, now that your analysis of the Tavistock report has been utterly destroyed and totally discredited - which it has, and decisively so - you've decided to reframe the debate as some pseudo-conspiratorial conclusion about my motivations - which, by the way, has never and doesn't court an ounce of evidence.

    People can see through this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,960 ✭✭✭Shoog


    My analysis of the Tavistock report is entirely in conformance with the conclusions of that report. What have I actually explicitly stated regarding the report ? Tell me what I have stated that is not in agreement with the reports conclusion. You will struggle because I have been very careful in what I have said here regarding that report.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra



    We all know there are a few transphobic trans women cause you keep reminding us.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,436 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Brendan O'Carroll says the "woke" critics don't hold him back.

    "I don’t think about them, I write the show I write," O'Carroll shared. "I don’t ever think of myself as being a man playing a woman – when Mrs Brown goes out on that stage she is a woman."

    Speaking about accusations of cultural appropriation, he told the The Sun: "Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for Leonardo DiCaprio to play a carpenter or do we get a carpenter? Shouldn’t we get the best person for the job?"



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    No were totally beholden to a small vocal Minority. You cant even make a series about a serial killer before complaints came in from the right on. There is no logic being it apart from only positivity please. Would be funny if it was not so serious. Triggered about a label used for description on Netflix.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭lumphammer2


    Lot of terms flying around that I never heard before used in context ... woke is something I did about half an hour ago ... as for BOC and Mrs Brown ... do not like it and was never a fan because I do not think it is very professional and it is too often on ...

    Right v left ... I do not know what the point is even to classify anyone as that anymore ... Love v hate would be more like it ... preferably Love/Hate ... King Nidge will sort them ... but seriously I know that right v wrong is a better classification than right v left ...

    I know war is wrong, terrorism is wrong ... any political leader who resorts to that is a dunce who lacks intelligence and ability ... or becomes devoted to a cult lead by some dunce ... I know that forcing one's religion on people is wrong ... imposing dress codes is wrong ... telling people what they can and cannot eat/drink is wrong ... keeping countries poor because of idiotic policy is wrong ..... racism, murder, rape, burglary, deliberately spreading harmful lies, sectarian agendas, misogyny, etc. are all wrong and evil .... Putin, Trump, Khamenei, etc are all evil leaders ... as were the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Milosevic, etc. ... all the lowest of the low, all with zero to offer, all destroying their countries apart from Stalin who was the exception to the rule of evil dictators ....

    The pushback against evil oppressive warmongering corrupt bigotry whether they identify as 'right' or 'left' or neither is the only pushback I support ... evil filthy failures masquerading as leaders need to go ... 100% support the Iranian people in their bid to free their country of 41 years of that useless Khamenei idiot ... Russians next please wrt Putin and co ... get these strange dangerous clowns out of office now ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,960 ✭✭✭Shoog


    He is perfect proof that been gay is no impediment to been transphobic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,825 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Haha chuck sake Brendan O'Carroll dressing in drag is now the pushback against leftism.

    Bottom of the barrel stuff



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,436 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,825 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    oh yeah if it wasn't for (checks notes) a website that refers to itself as "‘the mid-shelf red wine of New Zealand journalism’,"

    🤣🤣🤣🤣

    That's the big left wing threat you are frightened by?


    Do you think journalists with this type of opinion should be cancelled Quantum?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,436 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Not at all, who said anything about cancelling anyone? (Apart from Mrs. Brown, I'd agree with cancelling that all right...)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,825 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    So when you say,

    "if it wasn't for nonsense like this, there'd be no need to push back" in relation to the new Zealand site article, what form do you think the pushback should take. What does a pushback against the site that hosts this article look like to you?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In a report, there is a difference between the report's conclusion and the discussion and analysis that led to those conclusions.

    In the conclusion, did the report recommend a greater number of clinics throughout the UK? Yes - and, as an addendum, they recommended that a more "holistic" approach be taken to patients. In other words, they recommended against the "affirmative model" that the Tavistock employed (namely, that children who say they simply are trans [affirmation] should not be taken at face value), and recommended a more patient-centred approach that aligns with the best available evidence in medicine. No ideological imposition, in other words - just plain medicine. That sounds like a very reasonable conclusion to me, and I have no issue with that. You don't either, it seems. So our views align here.

    But that's where the alignment ends.

    Because what you are deliberately ignoring is the discussion and analysis of the report - which I referenced and direct quoted in great detail.

    That discussion and analysis, and all the evidence that came with it, was absolutely damning. Lack of safeguarding for children, misapplication of medicine protocols, ideological imposition, inappropriate use of medicines, and all the rest. It's all in the link above.

    So whilst you can point to a singular point in the conclusion and suggest that that's all the report is about, everyone else can see that this is a disingenuous attempt to ignore the discussion and analysis of the report, which savaged the Tavistock clinic, and were the direct reasons why the clinic had to be closed down.

    Now, as I say, we'll have to see what the inquiry into Mermaids reveals. Though after it has been exposed that Mermaids sent breast binders to children as young as 13-years old against the consent of the children's parents, I'm very concerned at what else may have been happening at this charity.



This discussion has been closed.
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