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Gangland Shootings part 4 - Read OP before posting - updated 30/12/23

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  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    And i remember people were speculating about Gerry's wealth. I think he is worth 1-2million myself but thats just me estimating really. I definitely dont think he has 50 million in the bank but everyone is entitled to there opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I remember when I was practicing in the mid to late 2000’s I’d try and get into as many as John Gilligans appearances as I could. But the security and frisking at every point was so alien as to what was normally there.

    His interactions with opposing counsel and the judge and sometimes his own advisers before they were given the heave ho was riveting.

    But with all that in place, especially with scanners at the front entrance, there was a back entrance specifically for barristers. While you did have to have an ID card it was rarely examined to any extent and easily forged.

    I was in the Special a good few times as my master was regularly briefed in membership type cases and the like.



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    I talk shite sometimes but i bring some insight and speak the truth. Like about my interaction with Neil " The Highlander" Fitzgerald outside dunshaughlin court house and the story aboutbmy dad being mates with James Mulveys old man aswell and them being a real respectable family. Mulveys old man is called James aswell but everyone calls him Jimmy.

    I Remember people talked about Gangland hardmen. I reckon Brian Rattigan could be the toughest. He is a brute of a man. I reckon he woud mill Scott Capper. Keith Boylan the Drogheda lad who led the anti maguire gang is very tough, he dodged 3 hits by the Maguires.



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    That would be the best education. I think you would learn a lot more watching on in person than what you could ever read in a book



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Its very surprising Factory John Gilligan is still alive tbh. The decision to murder Veronica Guerin was stupid. It changed Irish Gangland forever,



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  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    That would be the best education. I think you would learn a lot more watching on in person than what you could ever read in a book



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    My first year master was one of the most high profile female barristers that was on the DPP panel. She also had a very busy defence practice. Not once in that year did we meet any prosecution witness. That’s not to say that the prosecuting solicitors didn’t have any interaction with them but their skill set wouldn’t normally be on cross examination.

    There is precedent of cases being thrown out where witnesses were coached and roleplays of different line of questions were rehearsed over and over where the defence counsel successfully argued that his client was prejudiced and not getting a fair trial.



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    On this thread we have way more insight and knowledge than Paul Williams and Nicola " Face like a slapped arse" Tallant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 218 ✭✭NorthCity


    Everyone involved is fighting tooth and nail to NOT do the time . Dowdall is doing what he needs to do to get through this . Hopefully his evidence allows the Gardai to bring others before the courts soon .



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Bang on mate.. Dowdall is desperate and he is not a man of good character. How could you believe his word but some people said they have some tape recordings so i dont know



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  • Registered Users Posts: 218 ✭✭NorthCity


    Not one of them would have lasted 30seconds up against Mark Desmond ! When he was only a young fella he got into a fight with a traveller . He punched the head off him . Turned out the the traveller was a very tough bareknuckle fighter .



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Bang on mate.. Dowdall is desperate and he is not a man of good character. How could you believe his word but some people said they have some tape recordings so i dont know



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Hahaha The Guinea Pig..i heard he was a dirty rapist no?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Watching the cream of the crop barristers was the best on the job learning you could imagine. The one year Barrister at law degree was very practical and mainly roleplaying leading a witness, cross examining, doing bail applications was class, it paled into insignificance with watching the likes of Brendan Grehan and even the likes of John Rogers was like a masterclass. Knowing the pace, intonation, what not to say, jury interaction was amazing.

    But the attrition rate with younger barristers is absolutely crazy. From my year only about 10% remain. And the people that remain may not be the best but have enough disposable income to last out the 8-9 years where you are practically living in poverty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 218 ✭✭NorthCity


    Hutch is desperate , I'd like to see him enter the programme and give evidence against his former boss Kinahan .



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Anyone rememeber the Ballymount Bloodbath. That rarely gets mentioned but thats going back years. Was it Whacker Duffy and his INLA mates trying to tax Dee Dee and his crew?



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Yeah Gerry is more than likely fucked. I think he did organise the Regency tbh and both sides know it. He is about 59 or 60 now. I can see him getting a heavy sentence like maybe 20-25 years. What you think yourself?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I suppose that is the argument for having the trial in the Special Criminal Court where there is no jury. It’s very difficult (I’m presuming as I never spoke to one) to disregard adverse publicity about someone or constant tabloid spreads photographing people calling them gangland when they were never prosecuted.

    I’ve been involved in about 3 pre trial applications on trial fairness where in the weeks coming up to the trial there were prime time documentaries about the person. Unfortunately (if you believe that it’s impossible that the jury weren’t biased to some extent) it was always decided that the judges charge before they retire to adjudicate Would clean any adverse inferences.

    But going back to the special criminal court, if the right judges are chosen then they should be able to disregard anything superfluous to the case. Judges regularly dismiss cases for plaintiffs that have numerous convictions and had history but focused on the facts.

    But juries are biased. I remember my first case as a devil. Two people were on trial together, exactly the same facts, same witnesses, same sequence of events and purely based on their appearance and how they conducted themselves one for murder, and one got manslaughter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Im liking your

    I'm liking your detailed breakdown of the legal side of things. It brings a good balance to the thread. I studied a bit of law in college because i studied accountancy. We actually had an Ex Garda as our law teacher and he was brilliant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Definitely some of the best tutors I had did not necessarily make the best barristers and vice versa, some of the best barristers were only in the zone during a case but would be quite introverted. I couldn’t do any of the Civil side and barely scraped a pass in the final civil MCQ (luckily wasn’t MCQ) the actual practical exams of civil were fine I.e negotiation, discovery etc. But I took to Criminal like a duck to water. I had quite a different life experience than some in my year as I went down at around 28 after travelling the world for 5 years and owning a dive bar for 2. Like proper rough.

    but it was my master who I gained everything from. Unfortunately the criminal bar pays next to nothing until you catch a break.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I think what could be paramount to the trial are the special powers the judges have in the Special that are considered reprehensible in a normal jury trial or to our doctrine of law.

    Inferences can be drawn for remaining silent when questioned. Which at its simplest is if you say nothing when asked a series of questions in a Garda interview, then it could be seen as guilt.

    also belief evidence is admissible. In a normal case what you believed happened can’t be relied upon unless you witnessed it and some other things. Bit where there are gaps in the case where nobody saw x doing y, then if someone believed it happened or felt it was likely that it did, it can be used by the prosecution to remedy gaps.

    Now this is not to say that it’s a kangaroo court and pre judged but the normal way of conducting yourself when arrested which could get you off, may be used as a tool to find guilt.

    I’ve never fully come to terms on whether I fully agree with this approach or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    I don't know a lot about law but I heard the Special Criminal Courts have a very high conviction rate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Anyone ever see the Monks interview with Paul Reynolds back in 2005. Bleeeedin gas. Gerry said his gaff got robbed twice and the crime reporter asked him how he resolved it and he said he called the robbers an ambulance haha



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    From what I remember it’s 3 times more than the circuit criminal and a 1/3 more than the central criminal court.


    it’s like 90/60/30.



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    I heard its like 95% conviction rate and basically the equivalent of a death sentence



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Paul Crosby will be going up in the Special Criminal Courts for the Keane Mulready murder I believe



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    The % is correct but the sentencing varies. For example if it’s a membership one the max you get is 7 years. If it’s a murder it’s mandatory life but no set tariffs and up to others to determine release.


    if its the murder of a policeman it’s mandatory 40 years. Used to be the death penalty until the 80s I think



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    Really this should be an easy conviction BUT Dowdall is a snake. The judges basically have to believe his story but he will have all the police evidence to back him up aswell. What chance do you give Gerry of getting off..I'd say 20% maybe..who knows, its a very hypothetical question haha



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Paul Lawlor


    I have heard that Gerry Hutch is like a Robin Hood figure in the North inner city..he looks out for a lot of people and has a lot of influence. I believe its true but obviously romanticised a bit by the media aswell



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    While probably impossible to uphold its very difficult to predict the outcome of a case. In the higher courts in Ireland where a much more thorough investigation is carried out as opposed to lower courts, (how should I put this) I’ve never seen the wrong person on trial. I’ve never come across a situation like the Birmingham 6 or Guilford 4. I’m 100 not saying that in this instance as I’m not really familiar with the exact ins and outs because I haven’t been in Ireland for large parts. People are found not guilty because of technical or evidential issues rather than they are innocent. (I’m going to caveat this with this does not include any case regarding an SA or other similar trial)


    in this case you have probably two of the best barristers I’ve ever seen. Brendan Grehan when I knew him was the most liked by juries and at one stage he had never lost a murder trial:(now they all got manslaughter but that’s an amazing record) not still in place. Michael O Higgins ability to get to the root of the matter, think on his feet and ability to link seemingly unconnected matters to thread together the whole thing.

    But it has to be understood that the burden of proof that has to be discharged by the prosecution is beyond reasonable doubt. Now this is slightly easier to achieve due to the special powers I posted a few ones up.

    The whole thing can fall to pieces where a witness says something unexpected. Like in statement said ‘ I saw joeguevara’ but when in the witness box says ‘ I’m nearly sure I saw joeguevara’ then there is a doubt there. When you have a load of potential witnesses that possibly have underlying issues with each other, it’s quite easy to say something out of anger or if part of it is fabricated etc that contradicts what is being relied upon.

    So a case can only go ahead if based on the DPPs evidence there is a case to answer. If there is material gaps then it wouldn’t get to trial.

    I seem to remember that Brendan Grehan was going to make a pre trial application to get it thrown out because of lack of sufficient evidence. I’m not sure if that’s been heard.


    also this out of the blue evidence has the potential of backfiring if there is a slip up. Now I’ve seen loads of normal cases thrown out because of a fcuck up by a witness (e.g one witness in a quite disturbing case raised evidence that came to light through another person in a previous mid trial). When asked how did they know that they said ‘I heard it in the last trial that had to be stopped) that breach of naming his previous trial couldn’t be remedied as the jury couldn’t forget it.

    However in this case it’s more difficult for that to occur. It’s considered that judges have the capability of putting aside misstatements or inadmissible evidence.

    Its going to be fascinating but tense.



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