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NI Census 2021

189111314

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Northern irish identity the fastest growing? You do know it fell in the latest census.

    I asked Fionn this last week and got a weak response. Perhaps you can give me a better response. What unique culture has Northern Ireland that isn't a subset of either irish culture or British culture? Some culture that is only unique to the 6 counties please that unite you as a nation.


    Northern irish is not a nation. They have no unique culture. Like most jurisdiction that are set up for a unique nation. The Northern Ireland jurisdiction was not created because there was a unique Northern Irish nation. It was simply splitting the irish nation on do you want to be in or out of the UK and coming up with a gerrymandered boundary line on that basis. At best Northern Irish is an identity to a jurisdiction which makes it precious especially given there is an international peace treaty on how the jurisdiction will end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Do walls not already run through belfast? I understood from your previous post that should there be a UI that then you will push for a new gerrymandered NI boundary that will be not part of a UI. That is what you proposing should there be a UI? My response was how could a new boundary ever be agreed with out walls going through belfast.


    On the second paragraph the most shameful thing of irish history is the grip the catholic church had over people. But the good news is today in 2022 it has little to no power over the state. Also in the 1800's Ireland was all in the UK so it has to be acknowledged the catholic church also had shameful power within the UK jurisdiction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is completely patronising and insulting to those who are born British on this island, it is also a repudiation of the Good Friday Agreement which confirmed the birthright of those who are British on this island.

    Your fancy in respect of the Northern Irish identity is fantastical. The basis of a Northern Irish identity is that they see Northern Ireland as somewhat distinct to a greater or lesser degree from Ireland or Britain. On what basis do you think that anyone who identifies as something is prepared to give that something up? Do you somehow think that people who identify as gender fluid are persuadable to choose male because that is part of their identity like Irishness is part of Northern Irishness? Do you believe that national identity is of lesser importance than gender identity?

    The likes of Leo Varadkar and others like myself can see the challenge that this poses for a united Ireland. Anyone who isn't riddled with green blindness can see it too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    As usual misquoting the GFA. Anyone born in Ireland or UK has the birthright to identify as anything they wish... why? Because Ireland and the UK both have freedom of expression in their law. The GFA regarding birthright and identity is to do with citizenship. Ie a birthright to be a member of the irish state or the UK state. But despite been explained this you will quote the same shite in a few weeks.


    Then you speak for the Northern Irish idenity like they're one homogeneous group who think the same way. Some who identify as Northern Irish want a UI others want to remain part if the UK. You do acknowledge that? What is come clear is nothing can be inferred from what a person who puts NI on a census form wants. They might not wish for NI to exist in any form. But to suit your ideology of partition you will infer that they're one homogeneous group who want the NI jurisdiction to live on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The British identity is a 'chosen' one blanch. 'Britishness' is an artificial construct to encompass several national identities.

    You really need to get your head around that. Nobody is born 'British', babies are born in countries and are British by virtue of their parents choice. Some of them, (see NI census) reject that identity when they reach an age were they can choose.

    You can also cast off your 'Irish' identity, if you wish. But you cannot change the fact you were born in Ireland.

    The NI identity signifies that those people are Irish first and some will choose the existing Union in a Border Poll while others will opt for a UI.

    No figures exist on how many of this designation want an independent NI. There is zero political appetite for an independent NI expressing itself in this designation. So I'll stick with my 'fancy' if it's all the same to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    As usual misquoting my words.

    I didn't speak for the Northern Irish identity like they are one homogenous group, I actually said "the basis of a Northern Irish identity is that they see Northern Ireland as somewhat distinct to a greater or lesser degree from Ireland or Britain". That describes a continuum of identity, but with one common thread - identifying as Northern Irish - linked to the existence of Northern Ireland.

    As for your misunderstanding of the GFA, the key provision of the GFA is that it recognises that people born on this island can be Irish or British. The citizenship rules are secondary and consequential to that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The Northern Ireland identity does not signal that those people are Irish first, that is of your imagination. Again, you misquote or misunderstand me, I did not equate Northern Irish identity to an independent NI, but rather to a distinct NI within another construct. Huge huge difference, but one who failed to grasp.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Munster is distinct inside another construct. That what you mean? I grasped that about Ireland a long time ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,178 ✭✭✭✭josip


    The question about the NI identity is how it would split in a border poll. It would be naiive to ignore it, ie. either assume they wouldn't vote or would split 50/50. Looking at the census numbers, I think it would split 5:1 - Remain in the Union:UI, based on the numbers who identify as both British and NI and Irish and NI. A split along those lines in March 2021 would have had 59% in favour of remaining in the Union and 41% in favour of a UI. Although the demographic trend will narrow the gap by 2031, I expect political decisions and the potential economic effect of Brexit to have a bigger impact.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And an actual plan/proposal from Dublin would have a massive impact. Until that is done nobody can make any conclusive claims. 32% or therabouts supported Scottish independence when the Ref was called. On production of the White Paper and a proper debate over 2 years that grew to parity and beyond(for a while) by the time the Ref was held.

    A plan/proposal publication is the pivot point when we will get the true numbers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    At no point have I heard anyone here suggest that a fully independent ni is an aspiration



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    You can't possibly be this lacking in self-awareness? Did you read what you wrote here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Have you ever read any posts from Blanch? He can't get enough of the independent NI guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    According to dear Emma it’s the Irish identity that’s chosen. She says court of appeal says your born British but you are free to ‘feel’ Irish if you wish.


    don’t choke on your coffee francie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Weren't you going on about agitating for autonomy yesterday?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What now?

    Did I not just say you can take or cast off the Irish identity if you so wish too?

    9% of those identifying as British at the 2011 census have cast off their British identity. I am not aware of figure for Irish people doing the same here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Sorry francie I was looking at wrong year. You are correct

    census say 33.3% are Irish only

    in 1921 one third of ni population claimed to be Irish.

    the only thing that has changed in 100 years is fractions have changed to decimal points 😂

    that must be so depressing. But be encouraged that the catholic population has massively increased - just a pity for you they’re no longer Irish

    Post edited by downcow on


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Autonomy does not require full independence. Scotland has a degree of autonomy currently



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well no harm, but strategy/smelling the coffee, was never a Unionist strong point. And the post above confirms it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Perhaps you meant 'subservient' rather than 'autonomy' then.

    Autonomy:

    the right or condition of self-government.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Not true.

    (1) I have debunked the idea that Northern Ireland is too small to be a stand-alone nation, being bigger than members of the EU like Luxembourg, Latvia, Estonia, Malta and Cyprus.

    (2) I have argued that for some who identify as Northern Irish, an independent Northern Ireland could be a better option than a united Ireland and it is another option that is likely to come on the table.

    Neither of those positions means that I aspire to a fully independent Northern Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Why does the plan have to come from Dublin?

    In fact, if we are to respect the GFA, which gives a veto to Northern Ireland, surely the plan should come from those political parties in Northern Ireland who are asking for a united Ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Because we constitutionally aspire to a UI.

    We are not China are we, and we should not ignore the constitution. That is why pressure on the Dublin government is growing and why some of the established parties are now openly talking about a UI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yeah you call it whatever floats your boat. The key is that there are endless levels of autonomy so we would want to start with very little and then our community becomes the sexy forwards chasing goals (to use yesterdays analogy).

    A battle a day and a gain here and a gain there will give us focus and keep us motivated. Republicans will then have the joy of being boring begrudging goal keepers and defenders and you’ll be getting accused of ‘not an inch’ and the moderates will be asking you “what are you afraid of?” “sure they just want the angelus off the news”. “And “Tuesday they just want Irish removed from the signs in areas 51% want it removed”. Wednesday the union flag flew on government buildings in non-Irish majority areas. Maybe Thursday we could ask that all sports teams from cork to colerain are equality proofed to ensure our sensitive minority are not offended. Friday we’ll take a wee rest in preparation for the week culminating in a wee parade in our new capital city which will no doubt be keen to embrace us

    do you know. I am almost looking forward to it now 🙂



  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭FraserburghFreddie


    I was disappointed Scotland were beaten by Ireland in the world cup qualifying match.Seeing the Irish team after the match with a Donegal flag was heartwarming.The pro ira song they sang was very disappointing though and upsetting for any none ira supporting folk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Have yopu figured out the borders of this autonomous/subservient statelet yet, you sexy beast? 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am happy with them where they are just now, unless someone wants to propose something different



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    We may aspire to it, but we must also respect the GFA which leaves it to the people of Northern Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Are you saying we should ignore the constitution ála China, N.Korea?

    There should already be a plan in place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Not true what? That it's guff? It is the height of guff!

    No one has ever maintained that a non-contested region of ca. 1.8m couldn't be a viable independent State. Thanks for listing some smaller sovereign entities.

    Buy you see in the case of the North it's just that:

    a. Nobody wants it;

    b. There's myriad reasons why the North isn't currently viable as an independent State;

    c. Please re-read a. and b.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    A dialect of English remains English; a dialect of Scots also remains English. Because of course today most Scots dialects are really versions of English (Doric may be something else, I can't really follow it). So although Scots in Ulster may be unique in some ways (Geordie, Cockney and Scouse are also unique in certain ways, but nobody says they are separate languages) - e.g. unlike other Scots dialects, the R isn't rolled - it remains a dialect of English (albeit a rhotic dialect). It is in no way a separate language.

    Then again, we could demarcate which areas of the 6 counties speak or used to speak Scots, and recognise Scots there, while denying it recognition in the other parts. Divide and rule in true British style!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    The 'northern Irish' identity in many cases comes down to being a cat'lick in a swathe of land running from Coleraine through Ballymoney and Ballymena to Carrickfergus, and another swathe running from Donaghadee to Pordeedine, stopping off in E Belfast en route.



  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭FraserburghFreddie


    In these days of politically correctness,I'd think ulster scots language would be promoted as much as Irish in the event of a UI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    You misunderstand, wilfully I think.

    British is a composite of English, Scottish, Welsh and NI Unionists.

    Within Great Britain, it appears that British is most often chosen as an identity (over English, Scottish, Welsh) by immigrants, and particularly by people of colour. The "natives" in many if not most cases have a primary identity that they are already very happy with - English, Scottish, Welsh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I've already pointed out that it's merely a degraded version of Scots to the extent that it is now simply English with a few daftie stupidy words (do you get the reference?) even in the areas which haven't completely abandoned it.

    So as our constitution doesn't specify which version of English is to be used, it's already covered under the guise of our second official language.

    Nobody is stopping you from writing it as you like, nobody is stopping any council from producing documents written in it, and nobody is stopping "Tha Boord o Ulster Scotch" from having their website written in "Ulster Scotch". But none of those bodies want to do that, they use standard English, and for the very simple reason that Ulster Scotch is English.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Back to this bull of misquoting the GFA. NI and ROI are in a reciprocal relationship regarding unity by the GFA. If NI has a veto then so does ROI



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    See above post. Misquoting the GFA again. GFA leaves it up to the people of Ireland north and south.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,875 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Both the NI and the Irish referendums must be accepted for a UI to be agreed.

    If you like, both populations have a veto.

    I would be surprised if the vote in Ireland said NO. However a vote cannot take place without an agreement on the table showing the full details. Plus it will be overseen by a referendum commission - so no project fear, at least without expert rebuttal from the commission.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    So are you confirming roi doesn’t want NI? That’s a relief



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Your beloved and revered EU has declared ulster-Scot’s a language. Personally I think it’s nonsense but who are we to claim we know more than the EU masters



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Agreed. Well it would have to be or that would be another battle we’d have to take on. Both are declared minority languages by eu. I reckon the eu might even take our side as we insist the road signs are all changed.

    some here think ni is a mess and ungovernable. Try it as a part of a roi and it would really be a challenge



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    And less than a quarter of one percent in ni filled in their census in Irish. try holding a mirror up.

    I don’t know a single unionist who wants money spen on Ulster Scots language. You are just being a daftie



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I’m afraid not. Your masters wrote the gfa in a way that gives us nordies all the power. You can’t call a poll



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Oh look, Downcow has wilfully misread a post. Imagine that. Surely he wouldn't be so disingenuous?

    Can't wait for this to be misquoted and to distract and send threads repeatedly down rabbit-holes of nonsense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Why would you want road signs changed if you have no interest in languages?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Masters? Precious EU?

    Are you enjoying whatever Brexiter slop you've been consuming of late? I'd put down the spoon dear boy, it can't be healthy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    No. the north could vote for unity and it would not happen if the south voted against unity. North and south are in a reciprocal relationship that both need to vote for unity for it to happen



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You clearly stated that no one wants NI. I am glad to hear that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You are taking us all over the place. Your last number of posts refer the my response to the post that Ulster-Scot’s is not a language. I simply pointed out that this honour was bestowed upon it by EU. Something I think is silly.

    noe I am not being dragged further down that road for you to accuse me again of going off topic.

    back to the census. It confirms that no language other than English has any significant usage in ni. I guess that’s the same in roi



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