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Stranger parks motor cycle in front of my gate and accuses me of scratching it after I move it

  • 13-10-2022 2:41am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭


    I got home from work the other day to find a motorbike blocking my gate. The gate is the only way in and out of my flat and is completely obsctructed. I call the Gardaí and they unhelpfully say it is a civil matter and to contact the owner.

    After waiting about 45 minutes I attempt to move it a few metres so I can squeeze past. This is quite hard as the wheels are locked but I manage. Then just as I am about to enter the property, the owner arrives on scene and is demanding compensation for scratches I allegedly caused. He is demanding €1,000-€2,000 for this.

    I of course deny scratching the bike. But for argument's sake, let's say I did hypothetically scratch the (illegally parked) bike accidentally while moving it - am I liable? Lawyer sister says that I probably am even though it was obstructing my entrance. She also said I had no right to touch property that is not mine even if obstructing my entrance.



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Can you damage someone else's property if it's blocking your access? Nope you can't..

    Can you act to remove the obstruction assuming the most reasonable steps have been taken? Yes of course.

    Can they say you damaged their stuff? Yes, also.

    In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, can they force you to pay restitution..... They can try.

    Question for you is, did you do something unreasonable that legitimately could have caused the damage? And did they, or any evidentiary source, see you do it?

    If yes to the first only, you have a moral issue, of to the second only, you may have to go through the legal hoops to show them, if yes to both, you may have a legal issue..



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Let's say hypothetically the bike fell against the railings as I was trying to move it (quite an ungainly thing to move when the wheels are locked). This would not have been intentional. Would I be liable in this hypothetical instance?


    Note: after I moved the bike I saw no scratches etc and I really don't think I cauaed any damage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Well technically yes, as you couldn't handle it, so you "should" have reasonably expected that it moving it was a risk. You would probably have a defence to argue re access etc... But they would certainly have a case to take you to court.

    Now if no one saw you trying to move it and they couldn't prove that you did it.......



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    He saw me move it. I find it really annoying that he can park his bike right outside my gate and get high and mighty about scratches that probably don't exist and threaten to send solicitor letters while I have no recourse...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭MakersMark


    You don't need any recourse.


    Throw any solicitors letter in the bin. It's not a court order.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    He's just throwing shapes cos you moved his bike. Solicitors letters mean nothing, unless he's actually going to take you to court, which will cost him money.

    For the sake of 1k he would be mad to do it. So unless you feel bad .. Forget about it as mm says.

    If he wants to insist, make him get a sworn statement that the scratches were as a result of your moving the bike and that the repairs will cost 1000. Then let him spend more money on initiating a civil case, which could still be he said, he said. And ultimately their might be shared liability assigned due to his blocking the entrance.. And that could end up 50/50... So all that hassle for 500.... Nope

    Alt: if you did definitely cause the scratches and the bill is really 1000, then of course morally you should offer to contribute..... But that's up to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 890 ✭✭✭A Law


    Sounds very coincidental to me. Parks in front of your gate and shows up just when you move it claiming you scratched it. Seems like a shake up to me. I'd take my chance in court.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    You fell over his bike when it was lying on the ground after it falling over or being pushed over by someone or something else. You then dusted yourself off and tried to move the bike to a safer place.

    Guys like him I'm afraid are just looking for trouble, but they don't like it when trouble comes looking for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,500 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Was the bike parked on a footpath? Blocking the pedestrian gate? For one residence or a shared access route?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭EOQRTL


    Pretty crappy thing to do OP. You have no right to move someone else's vehicle just because it's blocking you. Sounds like you damaged the guys motorcycle and are looking for a way to get out of paying.



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,863 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    That bike could very easily have been blocking a route for fire escape.

    The op was well within their rights to move the obstruction



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,847 ✭✭✭✭callaway92




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You need two meters to get passed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    There wasn't "two metres". It was on a footpath completely blocking a small gate which is the only way in/out of my flat. The gate is used for our flat only.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 890 ✭✭✭A Law




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,968 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    If it was on a footpath, as you say, then the Garda you spoke to was incorrect.


    Did you say it was blocking your entrance, or parked on the footpath?



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Both. The Garda told me to contact the owner to get it removed as it's "a civil matter". I said I didn't know who the owner was and she told me to "ask around".

    Not to excuse the Garda, but quite a few motorcycles are parked on the footpath around here as there is nowhere else to keep them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Hobgoblin11


    there's so much millions worth of damage done to cars and motorbikes by way of aesthetic scratches and small bumps. Id say none are recovered through the courts

    Dundalk, Co. Louth



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,508 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    You have a sister who's a lawyer and you're asking random posters on an internet site??


    Right.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    She doesn't practice tort/civil law and I was stressed last night and wanted another perspective.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    So if I do (God forbid) get a claim in the post from his solicitor I'm thinking of hitting back as follows:

    1. Requesting a review any proof of damage to the vehicle and a sworn statement regarding the cause of the damage
    2. Requesting a quote for the repair costs issued by a reputable and independent motorcycle repair service.
    3. Obtaining a second opinion re: repair costs.
    4. Stating early that no settlement will cover the claimant's legal fees.
    5. As a condition of any settlement, any payment shall be in full and final settlement and no further claim can be made arising from this matter
    6. As a condition of any settlement, the claimant won't park their bike within 20 metres of my residence.

    Sound good? Anything else I should include?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,450 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Then it was a matter for the gardai as it was unlawfully parked on a public footpath. As ever, their hands were washed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,193 ✭✭✭Eircom_Sucks




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,061 ✭✭✭kirving


    If you didn't scratch the bike, then what are you entertaining any of this for?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,608 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Don't engage in any exchange with the motorcycle owner or his legal representative without seeking legal advice.

    Perhaps your sister can recommend a colleague if it ever gets that far which I consider unlikely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭Username here


    Has he apologised for blocking your entrance?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Just don't respond unless it's actually a notification of a court date, then hand it over to a solicitor and let them deal with it. Nothing good will come of throwing around legalese that you're not sure of.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He saw you moving his bike, but didn't come over to stop you? ... This whole thing sounds like a complete set up.

    I hope you took a photo of the bike blocking your gate before moving it?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,958 ✭✭✭D3V!L


    The "hypothetical" part of the story makes me think that you did in fact drop the bike and you're trying to gauge what to do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭backwards_man


    If you get a soliicitors letter ignore it. Responding in the way you have suggested, implies you are accepting liability for the damages. You are not obligated to respond to a letter from a solicitor. Know your rights!



  • Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Hypothetically, even if this did occur it would have not been intentional and there was no visible damage.

    No liability is accepted if you engage in good faith and the letter is marked "without prejudice".

    Correct. I assume that this is the most likely route.



  • Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Is there more to this story OP? Is this guy genuinely a stranger? Or is there an ongoing feud between you?

    If he was a stranger could you not have talked rationally to him as he probably made a genuine mistake? Despite the stereotype, most bikers are actually very reasonable. You say he saw you moving the bike so he must have been there.

    Not trying to be an asshole, just wondering.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    A couple of observations.

    1/. Blocking and entrance is ignorant and potentially dangerous.

    2/. Moving a motorbike with a "locked wheel" is not easy.

    3/. I didn't believe a word of the OP's post.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    My post is truthful. I am trying to keep my remarks as general as possible to avoid the claimant finding it and manipulating it so that it could be used against me. I am also not going to say anything that could expose me to civil liability.

    He was a complete stranger to me. However, I subsequently learned that he was a guest of another person in the neighbourhood who has a difficult relationship with some members of my household (though not me personally). For my part, I had never seen this motorbike or this person before that evening. Had I known this person/their motorbike, I would have acted very differently than I did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 492 ✭✭wpd


    it would have been lying on the ground if he parked it in front of my entrance

    you have a right to enter your property if he blocks your entrance and you accidently knock it over

    entering thats his problem



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,608 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    1 - As I said earlier do not engage with the motorcyclist or his solicitor without legal advice.

    2- The Small Claims Court will have no jurisdiction in this matter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Why would the small claims court not have jurisdiction? The alleged damage is less than €2k.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭h2005


    Just tell him to f off and move on with your life. Lesson learned for him.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,774 ✭✭✭cython


    SCC is for dealing with consumer and some B2B matters, can you identify a consumer in the scenario outlined? While they do make reference to property damage, that's presumably specific to damage incurred as part of the provision of a service or similar.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,313 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    Yea, the lesson being not to try that scam again.

    To thine own self be true



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,964 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    Why in the name of sweet suffering fcuk would you comment on something you have no clue about?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,608 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    See post #43 or better still look up the SCC on the Citizens Advice website.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Yeah it looks like as of 2014 it is only for consumer affairs, not for other small damages. I had not realised this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    You have every right to move someone else's vehicle which is blocking your lawful access or egress "to any place", you are lawfully allowed to take "such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction", S113 (4) of the Road Traffic Act 1961.

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/113/enacted/en/html

    (4) This section shall not apply to a person taking, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle which is obstructing his lawful ingress or egress to or from any place, such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction.



  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 11,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR


    File it in the circular filing cabinet. They would have to prove you caused the damage they say has been caused. That section of the statute book seems to cover any issue with you moving the bike.

    Tell him to get on his bike.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,040 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    You can move it, but you are still liable for any damage you do when moving it and moving a locked motorcycle is going to cause damage to the bike unless you can physically lift both wheels off the ground when moving it. You can do a lot more than €1k damage to a locked bike when you move it.

    Since this is a civil matter could the biker sue the OMC or the OP's insurance companies for the damage? Just because the bike was parked illegally doesn't mean that you can damage it, there's a reason the council and campers take lots of photos before and after they move or clamp a vehicle.



  • Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hadn't realised it had changed. No need to be an asshole.



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