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Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

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    #46322
    DLink
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭DLink


    https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2022/1014/1329261-covid-winter/

    Poor auld Fergal is chomping at the bit for restrictions to make a welcome return.... 🙄



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    #46323
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JIDMM17330.pdf
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119747237#Comment_119747237

    Exactly. Here's an outbreak of OC43 - a coronavirus that has been with us over a hundred years - that was as deadly as COVID in a care home in 2003 and the only reason we know about it is because they thought it was the original SARS so they PCR tested the staff and residents.

    EDIT: Peptide spot assay rather than PCR, and attached pdf as link is blocked



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    #46324
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,616 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119747237#Comment_119747237

    Cold and flu don't risk collapsing the health system (well, flu is arguable) to the levels that COVID was pre-vaccination.

    If they did, we'd be testing for them, isolating and locking down (or living in a world where we don't treat sick people in hospitals or have a much much larger health system, we'd adapt but freedoms would suffer).

    We'll likely have a lot more cold and flu this winter because they've had a chance to spread freely again.



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    #46325
    Don't Chute!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Don't Chute!


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119747856#Comment_119747856

    Collapsing the health system? That can’t happen because after telling us over and over again to flatten the curve the government has put measures in place to ensure it can’t happen. Haven’t they?



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    #46326
    bad2thebone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    Best thing I find for colds and flus are suggested herbal drinks, comfort, rest and organic chicken noodle soup.

    I know elderly and vulnerable people who are well able to take care of themselves. They don't need to go to the doctor or hospital.



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    #46327
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Am I hearing things right... 13 in ICU in the whole country and the usual suspects are already starting with the masks/restrictions nonsense.

    If we accept this rubbish this year it will be happening every winter.



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    #46328
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 13,063 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Ahh I see the " its just a flu, bro" posts are back again!

    Not even going to try to respond to that bs.

    This thread has become truly circular.



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    #46329
    DLink
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭DLink


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748222#Comment_119748222

    It's just another illness that's endemic now like the flu, we just need to suck it up and get on with it restriction free, bro.



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    #46330
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 13,063 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    .. .



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    #46331
    dominatinMC
    Registered Users Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭dominatinMC


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748222#Comment_119748222

    Again, nobody is saying that.

    People are comparing it to the flu in how we deal with it, treat it, live with it. Do you disagree with that?



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    #46332
    WealthyB
    Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭WealthyB


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742306#Comment_119742306

    This is complete lies. The Irish Council of Civil Liberties declared the use of Vaccine passports to be coercive. Unvaccinated people were refused entry to gyms, restaurants and cinemas. Prominent media personalities called for unvacinnated people to be excluded from society on our national broadcaster, using frankly dangerous othering language, and were let go unchallenged.



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    #46333
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,461 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748593#Comment_119748593

    There was no coercion. Look up the legal definition of coercion.

    Weasel words like 'coercive' from some random opinion piece at the ICCL is not the same as coercion.

    Nobody in Ireland was coerced into getting the vaccine. Stopping someone from going to the pub is not coercion.

    So I entirely reject your unfounded accusation of lies.

    Before you accuse me of lying again. Get your facts straight. Ask the ICCL for a legal opinion on whether the vaccine mandate met the definition of coercion in law, or vaccination by coercion.

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46334
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,616 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748104#Comment_119748104

    Nope, if another virus like COVID came along, then it would likely be lockdown again.

    Unless you want countries to overstaff the health system permanently by about ~50% in case there's another pandemic.

    They would likely be more prepared for it and be faster at Nightingale style hospital setup, but that's about it, a new novel virus would require different treatment types rendering a lot of the treatment stockpiling (e.g. ventilators) worthless for it (PPE would find its use again, though given how often pandemics occur, it would likely be moth eaten and useless by the time the next one hits, medical technology may also have advanced enough to control it better earlier).



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    #46335
    Don't Chute!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Don't Chute!


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748674#Comment_119748674

    Our health service has **** the bed every single winter since I can remember. Every. Single. Year.



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    #46336
    Doc07
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Doc07


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740389#Comment_119740389

    ‘we wouldn't allow children into cinemas with their friends if they weren't vaccinated...’

    Are you going to commit to this inane statement? When or where did this happen?



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    #46337
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,461 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748765#Comment_119748765

    We weren't the only country that locked down, or had restrictions. Germany, France, Canada, Netherlands, Spain ... they don't have our health service, yet covid was such a threat to their health services they also took extreme measures to combat it.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46338
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748655#Comment_119748655

    "coercion, threat or use of punitive measures against states, groups, or individuals in order to force them to undertake or desist from specified actions.

    In addition to the threat of or limited use of force (or both), coercion may entail economic sanctions, psychological pressures, and social ostracism." (https://www.britannica.com/topic/coercion)

    'Weasel words' from ICCL? Frankly, I don't know what to say. (https://www.iccl.ie/iccl-monitoring-rights-during-the-pandemic/)

    "ICCL supports the vaccine rollout by consent – not by coercion.'"

    "Vaccine certificates are coercive." (https://healthydebate.ca/2021/11/topic/ethics-of-vaccine-passports/) From an ethicist specializing in bioethics, philosophy of law, social philosophy and political philosophy. He is Director of the Centre for Professional and Applied Ethics, at the University of Manitoba - but Odyssey06 knows better than him? 

    If you don't think that coercion is the correct term, then what is, exactly? Are you confusing coercion with coercive control?

    Perhaps you could educate us on the 'legal definition of coercion'?



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    #46339
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,461 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748993#Comment_119748993

     Coercion-> "the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will."

    There were no threats or consequences or intimidation to people for not getting a vaccine.

    They could not frequent pubs, gyms etc. Establishments that had been closed during covid restrictions and re-opened to vaccinated people only.

    Ask the ICCL if the vaccine mandates met the legal definition of coercion. Don't point me to nonsense opinion pieces, 'ethics' professors or throw out weasel words like 'coercive'. That is not coercion.

    Nobody in Ireland was coerced by the government into getting vaccinated.

    The vaccine mandates was a legitimate and justified approach to encouraging mandates in the circumstances of the time where unvaccinated people were effectively holding the country to ransom. These establishments were shut pre-covid, at great economic cost to the country.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46340
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749020#Comment_119749020

    "There were no threats or consequences or intimidation to people for not getting a vaccine."

    If the vaccine passports had no consequences then why instate them at all? You are stumbling here. In your very next line, you list the consequences:

    "They could not frequent pubs, gyms etc. Establishments that had been closed during covid restrictions and re-opened to vaccinated people only."

    I am waiting for an education on the legal definition of 'coercion' still.

    P.S. you better write to Encyclopaedia Britannica and let them know their definition is wrong.



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    #46341
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,372 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119747856#Comment_119747856

    Cold and flu don't risk collapsing the health system (well, flu is arguable) to the levels that COVID was pre-vaccination.

    Did Covid collapse any health system in a region the didnt have an incredibly old age profile?

    Or did did the response to Covid collapse health systems?



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    #46342
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748842#Comment_119748842
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743570#Comment_119743570

    Jesus, relax...we aren't all available at all times on here!!

    Children were restricted based on the protocols of the particular venue. Which in turn were based on HSE guidelines.



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    #46343
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,461 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749033#Comment_119749033

    There were no legal consequences. No rights were infringed. No financial penalties.

    Nobody was forced or threatened into getting vaccinated.

    The ICCL don't even call it coercion. They use weasel words 'coercive'.

    SO go on, ask the ICCL if the vaccine mandates met the legal definition of coercion.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46344
    bad2thebone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749020#Comment_119749020

    Well people like me weren't coerced into taking the vaccine.

    I had the will and grace to hold out, I knew everything would open to everyone after they vaccinated enough people and I suppose there was advantages to sitting outside too. We kind of had our own little get togethes and there was canopies, heater's and cushions outside, and some places had woolen throws you could wrap around yourself.

    Vet's, nurse's,Farmer's, tradesmen, a few teacher's and quirky bohemian types all sitting together and having a laugh. Made good friends too out of it, never talked about being outside much. But we used to get looks and one observation was we were all happy with our decision. It was I suppose hardy people who were all age's, some would be in their 70's

    On a Sunday we'd all have breakfast outside Cafe Aroma in Ennis, the owner was great, he'd come out and ask is it comfortable enough for ye? Is everything ok...

    We all survived too.



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    #46345
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749077#Comment_119749077

    Well, I and anyone who understand the terms properly am quite happy to disagree with you entirely on this (you are wrong).

    I'm not wasting my Saturday evening battling with you about word definitions but here is some help for you: (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/coercion, https://www.dictionary.com/browse/coercive :adjective, serving coerce https://www.dictionary.com/browse/coerce).

    How's our legal definition of 'coercion' coming along? I'm waiting because you clearly know better than EB and the philosopher (of law) I quoted, oh and the ICCL.

    Have you written to Encyclopaedia Britannica yet?

    P.S. using phrases like 'weasel words' doesn't make you right.



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    #46346
    WealthyB
    Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭WealthyB


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119748655#Comment_119748655

    Spare me your faux outrage and take it up with the Irish Council of Civil Liberties, am sure they'll be delighted to hear how you're more qualified to talk about Civil Liberties than they are



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    #46347
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,461 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749111#Comment_119749111

    Yeah, so the best the ICCL could come up with was a Canadian ethics professor. Not a legal opinion in Ireland. Laughable stuff.

    Did you even reads what you linked?

    noun

    the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.

    force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force.

    There was no coercion in Ireland of people to get vaccinated. And vaccine mandates could not be coercion.

    Check mate.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46348
    Doc07
    Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Doc07


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749062#Comment_119749062

    What are you on about relax? I responded to two of your posts about a day apart. Hardly harassment.

    I’ll ask you again, what restrictions were imposed on unvaccinated kids compared to vaccinated?



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    #46349
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,461 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749124#Comment_119749124

    I'm not more qualified than they are.

    Nowhere have they provided an expert legal opinion showing how it meets the legal definition of coercion in this jurisdiction.

    I don't have to be a legal expert to spot the difference between that and what they actually provided.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46350
    WealthyB
    Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭WealthyB


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749154#Comment_119749154

    You say you're not a "legal expert" either but you seem to think you are as you dismiss what the ICCL have said, as it doesn't meet some random legal bar that exists only in your head.



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    #46351
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,461 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749181#Comment_119749181

    What the ICCL said was an opinion piece not a legal opinion.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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