What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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can't see it happening by the way when we're still ruled from Brussels
I hear this sentiment a lot and it bears pretty much zero weight when examined. It's easy to look elsewhere for blame and we've a history of that with the English and then the Church and now it's the EU in the firing line, however our issues are almost entirely our own.
None of the other EU members had a jus soli rule which led to the first "boom" of extra EU migrants and they weren't happy we had one. There are no EU barriers for us to tighten up border checks and security for non EU residents. Other EU nations took in many more Syrian refugees than our 3000, so clearly we had control there. On the other hand EU nations other than Poland on their border and Germany have taken in significantly fewer Ukrainian refugees per capita than Ireland and no other EU nation spends as much per head(I'm 100% for Ukrainian refugees but we needed a cap months ago). Other EU nations have fewer problems with deporting clear scammers.
The EU has nothing to do with our constant mismanagement of our health services, education and housing. How many other EU nations have our problems?
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Maybe other EU countries are not as reliant on the EU for the running of the country. I don’t know perhaps your right who knows. But what I do know coming from a fishing background alot more decisions on matters regarding this country are made in Brussels than Dublin and alot of which do not benefit the Irish people.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59073
The English Brexiteers said and claimed the same of their fishing industry and look at the mess it is now the EU are no longer in the picture.
But let's say that's all true about the fishing industry. What EU laws, regulations or pronouncements from Brussels affect our massive housing crisis, our decades long mismanagement of our health service, or our mismanagement of extra EU migrants?
Take Germany. Most anti EU folks see them as damn near running the show. They have 800,000 Syrians knocking around, we have 3000 and we went over each case with a fine tooth comb. So why didn't "Brussels" insist on us taking more? They didn't, because they couldn't. At best they can suggest such things and we can say nope. We have quite a lot of autonomy over our extra EU migrant numbers. It wasn't Brussels who had a say over our Jus Soli loophole, It wasn't Brussels who signed off on an amnesty for 20,000 illegal migrants, sorry "the undocumented", It wasn't Brussels who advertised in several languages a come on in for free homes to extra EU migrants.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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No your right it was our government who advertised and Done All the above.
What I am saying is heavily sorry very heavily steered by Brussels imo.
Where is All this money coming from these direct provision centres and refugees. Ireland could not sustain this alone.
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What I am saying is heavily sorry very heavily steered by Brussels imo.
Of course, there's political pressure to point a particular direction, but if our politicians care about the state of the country, they'd be perfectly capable of rejecting, or.. here's a novel thought, negotiating a better plan. Although TBH I seriously doubt there's much actual pressure coming from the EU, and all these virtuous gestures are coming directly from the Irish political elite, those within the workings of the State, and the lobby/pressure groups that whisper from the side-lines. We don't need to look to the EU for this kind of carryon.. we've had this kind of behaviour before we even entered the EEC.
It's simply Irish politics.
We have commitments as part of our membership of the EU, but again, everything is up for negotiation. We're not Greece with a crap economy, and social woes. We have a rather strong position within the EU, and if there was the interest, that could be made use of. Nah. The EU are simply a convenient scapegoat, so that our politicians aren't considered responsible. Which they are.
Where is All this money coming from these direct provision centres and refugees. Ireland could not sustain this alone.
Well, our national debt is quite impressive.... and in spite of a supposedly strong economy, there's never really any money available for our health service, schools, etc to the degree where problems are resolved rather than deferred. So I would suspect that the kind of money needed to start fixing the country is being allocated to feel-good gestures, that have little return on investment. There's a push to give artists a welfare supplement, like jobseekers, to support them while they do "Art". Great! But where does the money come from, and how do we see the economy improve as a result? We won't. It'll help some people, probably some people who genuinely need some help to pursue their artistic inclinations, but wouldn't the investment required (yearly) be better allocated to services for our children with learning disabilities? At least, then, there's an actual return on investment with more people entering the workforce.
The point is that our governments spend, spend, spend, and it's questionable how much of that spending brings about an actual return to the economy, and subsequently, the taxpayer.
Oh, and yes... Ireland can sustain their refugee/asylum situation alone.. it just means cutting corners elsewhere. Which they've been doing for decades now. Another hospital closes. Another Garda station is closed. Removal of funding for doctors clinics in some town. that social housing project promised for two decades? Sold off to developers to provide for refugees.
I'm convinced that there is a scale in the minds of Irish politicians about where money should be invested, and the average Irish person comes very low on the list. Artists, poets, famous people, refugees, etc all have some kind of special status, so they're prioritized.
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I think there was such a big change in Irish politics post twitter, even those who aren't on it are terrified of being pilloried on it by a very small section of society which they perceive to be important. They're all trying to chase the votes of a small sliver and gearing their policies towards them rather than trying to appeal to the vast majority of people who think yes, we should have asylum seekers but we need to take a managable amount, make the process quick, fair and objective and don't allow people to take advantage of our generosity.
This is what happens when you've a centre/centre left Government and the opposition is far left, theres no push back on any of the nonsense policies and only cries of racism when someone talks about practicalities or that people might try to game the system.
Saw someone refer to this current crisis as putting 300 litres into a 100 litre bathtub and getting cross when it overflows in spite of you accusing the bathtub of being a racist
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So it also turns out now, and correct me if I am wrong that even when you have acquired employment you can still avail of the direct provision accommodation and probably the meals. I was led to believe anyone in direct provision wasn't allowed to work.
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Okay some good points. But the fact remains Ireland is held together by EU money and lots of sectors could not survive without the eu supports is it not. As the old saying goes "you don't bite the hand that feeds you ".
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Ahh, I wouldn’t say you’re wrong, because it was that way for a long time, up until 2018 when asylum seekers in direct provision were granted the right to work -
Latest figures show that since July 2018, of the 9,187 people who applied for permission to work, 6,837 international protection applicants were granted permission to work. Based on employer return declaration forms, 60% or 4,091 are in employed or self-employed work. 2,913 people are living in Direct Provision and working. 1,178 are working and living independently.
Well, it’s true that Ireland is held together by EU money, but without it, it’s not so much that sectors wouldn’t survive; they would, but they’d just have to do it with a lot less support. See the UK for an example of how that’s going 😒
But to suggest that sectors are controlled by the EU, that’s not so. And I’ll be the first to admit I know feckall about the fisheries industry (apart from the odd bit I saw on the news the other day about the fish farms which are struggling to stay afloat… oh you better believe that pun was intended 😂). The EU funds all sorts of programmes, but it’s the job of the Member States to decide how the funds are distributed to organisations who will further determine how funds coming from the EU are spent -
Budget
It has an overall budget of €6 400 million for the period 2014-2020.
How the fund is managed
11% is managed by the European Commission to support EU-wide objectives in maritime and coastal affairs.
89% is managed by the Member States by means of operational programmes.
https://oceans-and-fisheries.ec.europa.eu/funding/european-maritime-and-fisheries-fund-emff_en
Our national debt is just one indicator that not only have the Irish nation become accustomed to biting off the hand that feeds us, we’re coming back for the arms too, in that we have crippling personal debt, and no real way to pay it off, so we’ve become accustomed to either living in debt, or just deciding that we’re not going to pay it.
The real cause of rising house prices isn’t due to immigration, it’s simply due to people who bought properties, took out mortgages to pay for those properties, and are now deciding that they’re not going to pay it back, making borrowing for future generations that much more unaffordable -
The example in this article is a good one of which demonstrates the mentality of the Irish people with access to cheap credit who behave as though it’s new found wealth, it’s literally the all fur coat and no knickers mentality -
The country’s remarkable recovery is a story of cooperation between the Irish government, the International Monetary Fund and the European Union. Ireland was swept up in the global financial crisis, but its problems were homegrown, and its return to economic health required homegrown solutions: restructuring banks, putting government finances back on an even keel, and working out a mountain of bad debts. The IMF and the EU provided loans and advice, but the Irish government was in the driver’s seat.
https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/IRL/ireland-from-tiger-to-phoenix
Ireland hasn’t recovered from anything. Our Government, with the assistance of Europe, is managing to paper over the cracks of a house built with no foundation, to maintain the image of Ireland as a wealthy modernised society. Provided you’re on the right side of the wealth gap which has been increasing since the collapse of the Irish economy, you’re not going to be all that concerned about those who aren’t, and more and more people are finding themselves on the wrong side of the wealth gap due to the fact that they bought into the idea of a lifestyle they couldn’t afford in the first place.
Now those people are looking for other people to blame for their own irresponsible behaviour, and now they’re looking to decide how public funds should be used to bail them out, while at the same time pointing fingers at other people for what they see as their lack of personal responsibility, political irresponsibility, Government interference and incompetence, NGOs, elites, etc, the whole gamut of anyone but themselves, and wondering why they aren’t being prioritised over other people who find themselves in difficult circumstances through no fault of their own, who need support to break the cycle of generational poverty which some people are only experiencing for the first time in their lives and expecting that they should be the priority. It stands to reason why they would be inclined to think that way, but simply complaining about it hasn’t done anything for the generations of people experiencing poverty who were used to it and are able to cope with living in poverty, who those people used look down on and argued that they were a burden on Irish society.
Of course it’s upsetting for those people finding themselves in the same boat as the people they once argued were a burden on Irish society and should be deprived of any support, but it’s for this reason that anyone finds it difficult to have any sympathy for those people. It’s also why the vast majority of Irish people aren’t too keen on the idea of depriving anyone of support, because they know they’re in a precarious position themselves where they might one day be in need of the same support they once easily argued other people in Irish society should be deprived of.
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More like anti semitic conspiracies 🤣
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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No, that's certainly true. The EU has been propping up many businesses and organisations for years. I loved the report on the spending, Ahem, funding of businesses throughout Europe just to keep unemployment down (All the while, the focus has been on bringing in more migrants). It really boggles the mind to prop up businesses just to employ people, while increasing the population and therefore the competition for jobs.
But that's the EU, and European governance.
And I agree, you don't bite the hand that feeds you, but honestly, Ireland could survive quite well without EU funding. IF we had governments less concerned with spending, and more concerned with building a sustainable economy. But we don't. And we'll continue to be overly reliant on EU support, because it gives our politicians their best opportunity to play in the big leagues, and get that comfortable position when they're finished playing their games in Ireland.
Ahh Democracy.. isn't it grand? At times, it hardly seems different from any other political system except for the trimmings.
Nope. They (the NGOs) campaigned for the right to work, and with a few hunger strikes or burning rooms, the government caved into their demands. Now, Asylum seekers can be fully employed while still under the appeal process. I'm sure there's some caveats like there is with Jobseekers but essentially, they're fee to do as they please.
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I believe a very large number of the recently graduated docs are travelling to Australia and other places to work right now. Seems to be a record high.
Which is crazy when the Irish docs have been heavily subsidized by the state. Taxpayers are largely paying for them to be educated and then to go to Australia , who get them basically for free, to work there when they are needed here. It's nuts.
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Jaysis there’s no pleasing some people 😒
You’re complaining about students being unable to find accommodation too and their education is funded by public funds (not the taxpayer), and now you’re complaining that Irish doctors are leaving Ireland, as though they should stay here when there are better opportunities for them abroad. Why would they stay?
I suppose it’s of no comfort whatsoever to you then that the Irish Government relaxed immigration rules in March to make Ireland a more attractive country to foreign doctors -
We’re competing for medical professionals in a global market, with the goal being to reduce healthcare costs to the State, but in doing so, the Irish Government are sacrificing the health and wellbeing of the people who are trained to look after the health and wellbeing of the nation, and I’m not talking about politicians, I’m talking about medical professionals whose working conditions are shìte.
Besides, it’s good for young people to get a bit of experience abroad to learn how things are done in other countries and experience other cultures, and some people bring that knowledge back with them which means that they are better educated in serving the general public of Ireland which has become increasingly multicultural.
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Reducing healthcare costs to the state while at the same time refusing to cap numbers arriving from the Ukraine and elsewhere flooding the country with people dependent on a serious amount of financial and social help.
like saying that it’s prudent to avoid drowning by going swimming in the sea with weights tied to your ankles.
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They’re two completely separate issues though? That’s probably why I can’t make head nor tails of your analogy.
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The GP or should I say the lack of GPs available now shows just out of touch the government are. Continuing to bring in more immigrants/refugees and handing out more free medical cards when the GPs are telling them that there are no places available and a serious shortage of GPs.
Not an issue when you have private health care tied into your nice cosy politicians benefits and know you and your family will get priority treatment.
The serious lack of hospital bed's, No GPs, and the waiting times for appointments are going to be a a bigger cause of death for Irish citizens than covid ever was.
Time to look after our own.
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Even with private healthcare many folks struggle here, it's a complete **** show.
The pols in the Dail don't have a plan except for to look good and take the easy route out. Which in this case means to throw <your> money at it and stick them in small towns all over the country without caring about the consequences in terms of education, health and living standards for the people in those towns.
I mean as an example.3000 in Killarney in a town of 14000 people, no extra resources,.it's madness. And they continue to put more and more in....
Talking about permanent structural changes...go on to F....stop people coming in without a bloody ID for a start! Do your bloody job.
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But why are we so short of GPs.
Surely we should be swamped with GPs as we were told its doctors and engineers that they were taking in.
People can laugh but the repercussions of what is happening will far more than was felt by the covid pandemic.
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The interesting part is that we had more access to GPs and hospital care before the Celtic Tiger than at any time after that. In my midlands town, there was a hospital open to the public, and (I think) 7 GPs operating individual practices. Now, the hospital is closed except for a small hospice for older folks, there is a "clinic" which has 4 GPs, and one GP is operating independently part-time. In the period since then, the population of my hometown has increased by, at least, 10k people. In the past, it was relatively easy to get an appointment, and access. Now, there's a waiting list of weeks, if not months. There's the same problem with Dentists btw. I suspect a large part of the problem is the government approved shift of services away from the towns to the cities.
The other interesting thing is the massive hike in costs. 50 euro for any kind of appointment as a base cost. Go in, be checked over for 5 minutes, come out without an issue? 50 Euro minimum. Need a prescription renewed? 50 euro. Need a document signed? There's a cost for that too.
I think Ireland tried to mirror what was happening in the US (when we all looked to the US as being some kind of Mecca) in terms of private and public health care, which naturally enough, considering the consumer nature of the US, to lead to disaster for the average person. Ireland is so damn expensive now, and for what?
I'm thinking back to my experiences in Asia/Africa, and while their economies or societies are far less "developed", with serious problems everywhere, they seem to have a massive supply of doctors. In Ireland, doctors have an elevated social status, due to the perception about the field and the higher incomes... in China, they're seen as no different to anyone else, and don't earn big money, and yet, there are loads of small clinics all over the place. Standard of care is far lower, but it is what it is.
I think we have to consider what kind of society we've been pushing for the last few decades. This focus on consumerism, and the rising costs that seem to be happening everywhere in western nations. How much of that is artificial? How much of it is planned for social programming to ensure the low/middle classes never really have the resources to challenge the upper classes? (not terribly relevant in Ireland but more relevant with mainland Europe).
It's an interesting situation. Doesn't bode well for the future though, as the cost of living in this country (including healthcare) is only likely to ever increase, and not revert to sensible levels.
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Eh? I have lived in Asia for many years, many countries and large cities in Asia are far more developed economically in many aspects than Ireland, access to quality healthcare and infrastructure being two specific areas that are often better in East Asia and some countries in South East Asia.
China and India due to their size may obscure the diversity in the region. Yep docs in many countries in Asia operate in local walk-in clinics and it works very well. They don't require such high charges and long waiting times for simple checkups and treatments. That's the way it should be!
The system of GP provision seems to operate in a very strange manner in Ireland and a bit of a cartel in terms of charges. I have been looking into online doc services (no local GP access)nd while patchy at the moment it's a step in the right direction in terms of accessibility and cost. I don't understand why more private clinic chains don't open up in the towns and cities as there is a lot of money being made by these GP practices.
It seems in Ireland a complete failure, very expensive AND poor access to GPs.
Post edited by maninasia on1 -
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Depend on the nation. Problem with China is the State led approval of "Chinese medicine" over that of westernised medicine. So, while there's more doctors, it's questionable whether the standard of care is adequate. Similar problems in Africa, with the influence of Tribalism, and more quackery in their medical colleges. The problem with Asia is the strong focus on the cities, which distorts the impression about medical care everywhere. But sure, I'd say that in S.Korea/Japan, healthcare blows Ireland away. The less prosperous SE Asian nation? Err.. that's very itty bitty. More access, questionable reliable quality.
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I rang my practice last week at around 10.45. Answer machine tells you the practice has reached its quota of calls.
Next day rang at 9 start of opening. Informed it could be 7 to 10 days to see a GP. If I thought it was serious go to A&E.
And I believe this is not a one off occurrence.
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I was in A&E myself on Friday for an X Ray. Arrived at 9am out at 9pm. Staff were all run off their feet but treated people very well and as efficient as possible. I was shocked at the shear volume of people there. Some had been there since 3pm the previous day.
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Same here with my GP.
I had a bad chest infection a while back. Needed antibiotics. Couldn't see me for 7 days next appointment was the following Tuesday.
After 1 more day I was in agony so I rang and told them I had pains in my abdomen and thought it was my appendix. They told me to come straight in. Once I got in I told them I was lying and got my antibiotics.
They weren't happy but sure look. What else are you supposed to do?
Was in and out in about 3 minutes, I hardly blocked up the day for them?
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So many stories and all the same.
Handing out medical cards like confetti and killing our doctors and nurses in A&E.
People wonder then why more and more are heading out of the country.
Also so many of our population are going to end up being the lost cause of a over due diagnosis.
Clear to see that there must be something very lucrative or appealing to our government in other issues this is happening.
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After a failure to access any local GP , (my folks also could not access their longstanding GP for a week even for serious ailments) , and fairly poor service from online docs (some cannot prescribe certain medicines), I got an appointment with a fully qualified foreign born GP who primarily serves Asian immigrants in Dublin city centre.
My brainwave was there has to be some services for immigrants who don't have any 'local GP' and I was correct.
Same afternoon appointment, paid 70 Euro for the privilege. In and out , proper checkup ,got the meds I needed. Was very happy with that even with the higher fee. He does video consultations at a cheaper price aswell.
I also got my teeth fixed up at a Polish dental clinic and very satisfied with their care and communication skills.
I also resent govt handing out medical cards so easily to some and offering nothing to others, but the problems are obviously deep and wide and extend far beyond refugees and immigration policies. In fact immigrant health professionals are definitely helping plug the gaps.
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Sure if there not bothered checking where some are from or what some may have done what makes anyone think they are checking if credentials are genuine.
This country is synonymous for doing things back to front. As the refugee crisis shows. Medical cards and no GPs,Bus tickets and not enough buses and tents because our accommodation has ran out.
No planning at all.
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It depends what you mean by genuine. It can be a genuine medical degree from Pakistan, given to a doctor who literally can't tell ass from elbow.
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Or simply that their standards are different than ours. Not all nations follow the "western" codes of practices. Hell, what used to go on in the US would be considered unacceptable in Europe, depending on the particular field.. and vice versa.
Just consider the amount of drug medication that American doctors and psychiatrists recommend (or push) on to their patients, which Irish doctors considered (in the past, at least) irresponsible (considering the huge upsurge in addiction in the US).
We like to think that Western medicine is scientific and reliable, but a lot of it is experimentation.. it's just that it's generally better than what is seen in other non-western nations. Generally.
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