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Why should I care about Climate Change while China has 43 New Coal Fired Power Stations in the works

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Yes, and who buys all the goods produced in China? It's not the Chinese.

    Average US consumer spends 97 dollars a day. Average Chinese spends 7 dollars. https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/macroeconomic-insights/growth-of-china/chinese-consumer/index.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    No its "not missing the steps" its expected to exceed its 2030 targets...they have already stated their emissions will rise for 3 more years before they start to decline rapidly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭quokula


    And the same data shows Ireland is 35th and China is 41st. So why should anyone in China bother doing their bit when they're already contributing less to climate change than you or I?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    China's economy is now the largest in the world, the growth in carbon output is now dominated within the domestic economy, not the manufacturing part of the economy, the manufacturing part is pretty much maintaining volume but shrinking as part of the overall economy.


    Within that, the Asian market continues to grow in prominence.


    If Europe and North America became uninhabited woodland tomorrow the Chinese economy would still be a Carbon behemoth and quickly use up the dropped carbon output.


    If Europe and North America want to solve the climate crisis, it must help Asia with technology to do so.


    Anything else is important to buy a few years but will not change anything overall.


    Asia is the be all and end all of the climate crisis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Most of it is bought by the Chinese.


    Pretending that China only sells to the west was out of date 20 years ago.



    In one sector alone, concrete poured, since 2003, China has poured more cement every two years than the US managed in the entire 20th century.


    Exports to the US, account for 3% of Chinese GDP.

    Carbon in China is a domestic event.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Many of them are probably more concerned with climate change and pollution than we are.

    They've seen the effects of weather changes, and massive flooding. The problems over desertification. The soil erosion, and the earthquakes. They've had to live in smog filled cities where you need to wear a mask or a rebreather on certain days. They've encountered the problems with fertility, breathing conditions, and cancers. They've had to deal with companies polluting their rivers and drinking water sources. And then, there's the things like Shanghai slowly sinking into the sea.

    All in all, the Irish have seen very little come from pollution or climate change..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    The growth is dominated by domestic...

    Yes it is, huge growth, but overall largest carbon emissions are industrial, commercial and construction.

    If Europe and North America...

    Well who would the Chinese manufacturing sector serve if their biggest customers disappeared?

    Europe and NA must help Asia....

    This is a problem for everyone, but make no mistake the Chinese are very capable of making huge technological strides.

    Pretending the Chinese only sell to the west...

    Not so sure on that one, the West is still the primary markets for Chinese exports, more so than its indigenous market.

    Chinese poured more cement....

    Yes, and the scale of construction is unimaginable. Remember the difference in scale though. China has at least x4 population of USA and huge urban expansion between 1960 and now, mostly into apartment blocks (of dubious quality)

    Also US construction doesn't actually use a lot of cement. Majority of houses are wooden, commercial buildings are concrete and steel.

    You're not wrong, but I think you're seeing half the picture. China has lifted about 500 million people from wood and mud huts to apartment living in about 50 years. The scale is staggering, probably the biggest and fastest social upheaval in history.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The same link shows us 2nd in total emissions (4500 Megatons). Footprint is a net calculation after carbon offset.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    When a person says they believe in "the science", they know nothing about it. Climate change is not a problem you adapt as proof you have adapted to global cooling and warming all of your life, your children will adapt. It is climate policies that have very real potential to kill you, and much sooner than advancing old age, by destroying both energy and food production, making both scarce and expensive.

    The price inflation we are experiencing today in our day to day living is due to the shortage of energy, and while Putin is the blamed as the proximate cause, energy prices had already risen significantly prior to February 2022. What Putin has done is bought forward the energy crisis that had been in the making since the Kyoto protocol was signed in 1997 and was expected to affect us directly here in Ireland by the end of the decade.

    Did you know your smartphone uses more energy than a fridge. The manufacture of solar panels is energy intensive and dominated by Chinese manufacturers. Fertiliser depends on natural gas,and due to the shortage of gas molecules, manufacture has has to cease or be curtailed, the shortage of fertiliser is going to translate into a shortage of calories to feed humans and animals. The competition for gas from rich countries is causing problems for poor countries such as Bangladesh.

    Over the past decade Western European politicians have decided that their states economies can be run solely on electricity, in pursuit of that goal they have impeded the discovery and extraction of fossil fuel sources on their doorstep, closed and demolished reserve generation power plants, banned (Ireland) or phased out nuclear generation (Germany), run down their fleet (France) and allocated substantial resources and subsidies to unreliable energy generation sources such as wind and solar and created mandates that increase our dependency on electricity generation.

    To cover the deficiencies of Wind and Solar generation they increased their use of natural gas. There is no miracle cure here, the only option open based on pursuit of current energy policies is energy rationing and right now this by price mechanism, gas molecules cannot be printed or borrowed like fiat money can. You don't need a science degree to see what is happening now, you are experiencing it and even the Greens are praying for global warming this Winter, cold temperatures kill more people every year (excess Winter deaths). This part of the rock typically sees temperatures from 4 to 8 C during daylight over the Winter months.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He's right in a way though. We've been told at various times over the last 40 years that coal is bad, we need to move to oil; oil is bad, we need to move to heat pumps and solar; lead petrol is bad, we need to move to diesel; diesel is bad, we need to move to unleaded petrol; unleaded petrol is bad, we need to move to electric. At some point people just shrug and get fed up with shelling out money to change to the current "four legs good, two legs bad" must-have item. I don't doubt that in 20-30 years time we'll all have to rip out our solar panels as they're doing <insert bad thing here> to the environment. Or the heatpumps will have to come out because we're depleting the planets copper. The trouble is that governments and corporates always have a vested interest, and they steer the populace towards the thing that will provide maximum profit, not the thing that is actually most beneficial for the planet. If we collectively took the problem as seriously as we did the Covid vaccine we'd have it cracked by now, not the current piecemeal lucky-dip approach.

    Take those eejits throwing soup at the van Gogh this week - Just stop oil. Show me someone that thinks oil production should stop immediately and I'll show you someone who doesn't live in the cold, damp north of Ireland or rely on their own car to get around because there's nothing else. Instead of throwing soup around give me a viable, long-term, cost-effective alternative that isn't being pushed just to make rich people richer and I'll jump at it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,409 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    But Coal is bad - The smog and air quality in cities that burned 'smokey' coal was killing millions of people a year and destroying the air quality across all urban centres

    Oil is better than coal, but still affects air quality. Electrical heating is better for the environment if the energy comes from a cleaner source than an oil or gas fired central heating system

    Leaded petrol absolutely was bad, it was poisoning people and the environment with toxic heavy metals, Petrol was better, and Diesel, with the modern filters (properly maintained) was supposed to be cleaner than petrol (except that the Car manufacturers falsified their emissions tests) Electric, is much better for air quality in towns and cities and if the electricity is generated using clean renewable sources, it's even better still. Sure there are some pollutants in the batteries, but compared to the amount of dirty oil and all those used filters and engine parts that an ICE car produces over the 15+ years and all of the gunk released when refining the oil needed to make the fuel during it's operation, I'd say the battery electric car is much cleaner in the long run.

    I really don't see your point.

    In 20-30 years the solar panels will be reaching their end of life anyway, and they will be due to be replaced with whatever the most efficient tech there is at the time. As long as we're not being greenwashed by companies selling dirty technology and pretending it's environmentally friendly, then I see it as a good thing that we're finally taking things like air quality and efficiency and climate change into consideration when planning our home and transport infrastructure

    I would be worried about the hydrogen economy being a trojan horse by the fossil fuel sector to keep using methane to generate 'blue' or 'grey' hydrogen

    We do need to be very vigilant about where we invest to ensure it's an actual improvement. The Diesel-gate controversy shows that we cannot trust industry to regulate itself. We need to insist on independent evaluation of claims made by industry.

    The people throwing soup at priceless art, I have no issue with them. The art is protected, it is not in any danger of actual damage, They are calling for the end of Oil and gas, and we need to keep calling for this as loudly as we can because we know that as soon as we stop paying attention, the oil and gas industry return to business as usual.

    They're not going to get oil and gas production to stop immediately, but by calling for this, it highlights the 'targets' to be 'net neutral' by 2050 need to have action taken immediately or else it's just more empty rhetoric aimed at allowing them to continue polluting our planet. A target 3 decades in the future is utterly useless. We need targets for 2023, 2024, 2025 etc so we can measure our progress instead of letting our governments do nothing knowing that they'll be out of power before they're held accountable

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Butson


    It does feel like we are p!ssing into the wind on climate - either we all do it or we are wasting our time.

    But as others have pointed out, China, apart from its massive population, is the leading polluter as the west in addicted to buying stuff we don't need. Cheap, plastic tack from toy shops, Deals etc

    Crap clothes from the likes of Pennies. All this stuff is made over there, then we buy it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    If governments want to get tougher on climate change they need to attack the causes of it. Corporations, industry and big businesses.

    of course they don’t have the stones for that, they’d rather attack the guy on the street for not driving an expensive hybrid or not using the invisible public transport that isn’t there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    Germany also has new lignite coal power plants. The thing other country do what might be workable for them and their people while our rulers ensure other countries laugh at Paddy dogmatically following some old dogma where in this case nonsense politicians sign up to at some expensive summit. It is of course a more than useful coincidence that environmentalism is largely a pretext for more taxes so grifting quangocrats and environmental consultants who are happy as larry lapping up the tax payer cream. Coal is still king in China and elsewhere. It isn't in this kip of a country (it's a kip now with town after town falling into near ruin), but Irish have to are ruled by grifters, pious people I'd see or hear if inflicting watching RTÉ Current Affairs on myself.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    As also pointed out If China stopped exports to the West today it would remain the largest carbon output source globally, still be producing more carbon than the West combined, it would continue its meteroic rise in carbon, while the West continues to drop.


    3% of Chinese GDP is linked to US exports. Pretending Western consumption is the source is just self obsession by the West.


    We must continue to improve but the carbon crisis will be won or lost in India and China regardless of others actions.


    Helping them clean their tech is the biggest priority.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Considering the costs of living in Europe, there's quite a few people who do need those "cheap" clothing options. And in any case, many of the "designer" brands manufacture their clothes in China too.

    And while they might leave China, they'll simply re-establish themselves in Vietnam/Cambodia or Africa, where they'll have even less laws to be concerned about in relation to environmental concerns. If it's not China, it'll be a combination of other developing countries, so that Westerners can pretend that they're concerned about the environment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,319 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    if you have kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews, you should be damn worried about it, theres more to the human race than just our own needs!

    china has actually invested more than all other countries on the planet in expanding its renewables, and those of us in the west have ultimately been the ones supplying china with the majority of their fossil fuels, so its not really just the Chinese playing this game!



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The West supplies China with fossil fuels? About half the world's coal is mined in China, over 60%in Asia and rising rapidly. In freefall in the West.


    70% of China's exports are to non western countries.


    The domestic economy is by far the biggest market for China.


    The days of China being just a workshop for Western sold goods is 15 years out of date.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,409 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Yeah, a lot of the posters saying 'But China' are comparing Ireland to China, but really they should be comparing the EU to China, Ireland is a part of the EU, As members of this block, we have a responsibility to bring our emissions down, and we have influence over the international regulatory environment that will ultimately need to regulate international trade where high emission manufacturing attracts penalties that make them uneconomical compared with sustainable manufacturing using renewable energy

    The EU needs to meet our targets to reduce emissions and once we achieve this, we will be able to impose these emission standards onto our trading partners in the same way we require imports to meet the same standards as goods produced in the internal market.

    Simply using China as an excuse to not do anything is a recipe for disaster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Yet in that time they are expected to add more additional carbon output than Western Europe and America combined and keep it at that for a long time while the West output is in freefall but we have to pretend that the 3% of Chinese GDP from exports to America is the reason for their Carbon output.


    The trend remains upwards at a steep level.


    If you are concerned about carbon particle levels in the atmosphere your focus is on China and Asia overall. If you don't care about it then focus on the minnows in the West and let it rise exponentially globally.


    But, but, but China has so much solar doesn't cut it when they are pumping it out on such a scale and growing.


    The US and Western Europe going carbon neutral will buy a couple years cancelling of Asian output but that's it, minnows trying to ease the path of whale.


    Climate change will be won or lost in Asia, the industrial Revolution and the century after that is being dwarfed by Asia in Carbon terms.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    The point was that we have been feed many conflicting lines over the decade, and at this stage it feels like the boy who cried wolf. Most people believe theres a real problem and "it needs fixed", but they have no idea what to do about it in practice and particularly at the moment have not got the cash to throw at it. An example : I've owned cars for 30 years, I average around 7 years per car, and tend to buy them at 3 or 4 years old. I have never spent more than £10k (I'm in the North) on a car. I just haven't got £30k to spend on a new electric car; I haven't spent that much on all my car purchases combined. Or £8k on a solar / battery system. or £12k on a heat pump. And certainly haven't got the money to do all of them over the next few years. Plus I'm not going to spend that sort of cash on something that may be considered environmentally evil in 10 years time anyway. I need a consensus on the best approach and I need proof. Back to the car though, I do less than 12k miles per year, so the stats tell me I won't actually be offsetting my electric car footprint by my mileage. So there's no point in me buying an electric car, is there ? It's a minefield.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    China's economy isn't even close to being the largest in the world. They would need to grow by another 20% while the us remains stagnant. They have higher growth sure but it will be harder and harder to maintain as they become more developed. Maybe you are using some other measure but in terms of GDP at least , there's a long way to go. That's ignoring the potential impact of political decisions such as zero COVID or trade wars with the us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    China produces more carbon than all Oecd countries combined, (including the entire EU.)


    Carbon output in the western world is dropping an average 6% a year. China's averages an increase of 8% and Xi was clear on the need to increase fossil fuel use as well.


    Helping Asia is the only game in town that makes a difference.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    True i was using purchase power parity.


    In GDP China is still 3 trillion smaller than the US Which is circa 22 trillion.


    China is a country as likely to semi implode as last long term.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    To be honest we need a whole new approach to living. Putting targets on top of our current lifestyle is just a sticking plaster. In broad terms Extreme Capitalism has failed the average person and has failed the planet, there needs to be a much more contended approach to lifestyle. That may include a load of things like limiting flight numbers per person per year, limiting car mileage, putting in higher energy tariffs for those who use more than a certain amount, high percentages of food on sale should come from your own county or your own country, Europe-wide banks of renewable energy put wherever they can and fed back to the user across the continent at source cost, long-term EU loans provided so all can manage to put in whatever the correct tech is, not just the rich. All this and no doubt a lot more needs to be looked at imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I'm in favour of measures such as education etc. as a means to help alleviate climate change but I'm not in favour of taxing the sh1t out of us while the main polluters continue to pollute on a large scale, e.g. China, USA, etc.

    What we are doing is akin to thinking that we can lower the height of a lake by taking a teacup of water out of the lake while a river flows into the lake. On a global scale, we are making no difference whatsoever. All we are doing is penalising ourselves with extra taxes.

    Ireland produces approximately 1/1000th of the world's greenhouse gasses. Even if we magically went carbon neutral overnight, we would only improve things by 0.1%.

    What's the point of sticking a carbon tax on a bag of coal. It does fcukall good in the scheme of things and penalises some auld wan who has no option but to use an open fire. I'm all for trying to improve things but we are wasting our time while the main players are contributing hundreds of times the greenhouse gasses that we do.

    Post edited by BattleCorp on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Here is a little nugget of information for you... If Ireland and the EU failed to exist in the morning it wouldn't make a dent in global emissions. This self-hatred the greens always espouse is mind-boggling to say the least. Do you think middle-class China, India, Brazil or similar countries give two asses roars about flooding in Spain or heatwaves in France. They don't.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭EOQRTL


    For christ sake it's all about the veneer of looking like you are doing something. The stuff we are doing at the moment isn't going to save the human race but politicians in the west have to be seen to be doing something to get voted back in again but they know by making the changes required it will destroy their economies. Anyway it's all BS as we've already passed the tipping point. All the idiots letting air out of SUV tyres or pouring soup on pictures aren't going to make a jot of a difference.

    I've made my peace with that.



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