Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

ulsteru20s · 17-10-2022 1:06pm

Every time i see crowley play he looks truly special with ball in hand, in terms of taking the ball to the line and then forcing defenders to respect that at the decision point, he could pass, run or kick. Its hard to be elite without that ability in this kind of system.

Healy to me is a good OH who needs to be in a kick heavy system. Not this system.

Carberry was better on saturday and is way more suited to this than Healy. He still shines to me in unstructured play as well more so than in the system itself.

aloooof · 17-10-2022 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755637#Comment_119755637

I'm not convinced Healy's a stronger defender than Joey tbh. Of our 3 10's, I'd say Crowley's top of that list. The Ospreys game last season he started, he was excellent defensively that day; about the only positive out of the day.

ulsteru20s · 17-10-2022 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755782#Comment_119755782

I know its EI but crowley put good tackles in again and again vs big brutes in his channel in the cheetahs game. He is definitely not a speed bump.

Healy plays way smaller than his frame on defense. Very noticeable in connacht game.

realhorrorshow · 17-10-2022 1:29pm

Healy and Carbery are probably the two worst defensive 10s on the island tbh.

17-10-2022 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755613#Comment_119755613

Yeah, the two are obviously circular and connected. As a former scrum half, I saw this firsthand.

Quick ruck ball gives the half backs more time and gives you more options, making decisions easier. Equally, if the half backs are changing the angles of attack frequently and pulling the defence out of alignment, it means the opposition are less likely to get dominant tackles and therefore harder for them to contest the ruck. As i said, this was the best attacking shape I saw from Munster in some time. But Carbery was a huge part of this, and deserves credit for it.

17-10-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755581#Comment_119755581

Oh okay so, no actual specific examples, just what you saw.

phog · 17-10-2022 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755916#Comment_119755916

Little did I know that I should be using a timer on him so I could give you chapter and verse on his play.

Foolish of me to engage with re-reg, there's usually a reason why they re-reg and it normally isn't a good one

As an aside here's a bit of advice to anyone who might fall into the trap I did

Let people win arguments on purpose to conserve your own mental peace.

awec · 17-10-2022 1:57pm

A gentle reminder, this is the Munster thread. Munster fans do not need to explain their views to Leinster fans on this thread.

lawrencesummers · 17-10-2022 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755860#Comment_119755860

Burns is gonna get right pissed when he hears about his demotion

17-10-2022 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755984#Comment_119755984

I don't know what you're talking about with your re-reg shite, that's not the case with me at all. I've never had an account banned from this place or anything like that.

You're the one who felt the need to argue with me, by taking exception to a point I made. I said, for one of the first times since he went to Munster, he didn't look tentative in attack. Looked to be coming onto the ball, putting players into space, and playing with some confidence for the first time in a long time. Gave the example that Munster's quick ruck ball as evidence of this.

You countered this, by just asserting, multiple times, that you, someone who has posted nearly 20,000 times on an internet forum, did think he was tentative, and that's that. And I'm the one debating in bad faith?

ulsteru20s · 17-10-2022 2:06pm

I thought he was hesitant as well, and also obviously in the wrong spots. Alot of the missed passes early were to him, where he was expected to be. If thats a pattern, i expect thats on him partially.

He improved as the game went on.

There is a difference between hesitancy and making a late decision. The latter is good, but id say carberry was more hesitant early.

17-10-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756028#Comment_119756028

What does the fact I'm a Leinster fan have to do with the discussion we were having?

At what point did I bring Leinster/Munster issues into the discussion?

Specifically in this instance when I, the Leinster fan, was praising Munster, and the Munster fan, was the one criticising them?

phog · 17-10-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756060#Comment_119756060

Hold on, where did I say or imply that you had an account banned?

You really are looking for an argument - good bye

17-10-2022 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756136#Comment_119756136

What's your re-reg nonsense about then? You're the one trying to suggest repeatedly that I'm debating in bad faith.

phog · 17-10-2022 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756084#Comment_119756084

It seems that some poster/s think you can't be hesitant if you have some excellent play as well. BTW, I'm including him when he had the ball in hand too not just where another player would assume Joey should be.

Brief_Lives · 17-10-2022 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755912#Comment_119755912

you are as hilarious as you are condescending...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYTYqs-ytSk

17-10-2022 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756259#Comment_119756259

And, as others have said, you're a strange individual. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Brief_Lives · 17-10-2022 3:18pm

I have no problem with being accused of being strange.... from reading up on a lot of the comments, i won't be accused of being negative or condescending....

i think being condescending is one of the wost attributes i would have been afraid of being...

being negative... well, why follow the sport...

Munster haven't turned a corner yet, The Bulls didn't turn up. But to see the younger munster players turn upo.. that makes me positive. After the Bulls try when Coombes knocked the ball out of the hand, I finally saw a new Alan Quinlan... we need that oddness..

aloooof · 17-10-2022 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756060#Comment_119756060

Gave the example that Munster's quick ruck ball as evidence of this.

Tbh, I'd credit Casey an awful lot more for this than Carbery...

shootermacg · 17-10-2022 4:40pm

If I were GR, I'd be talking to Flannery. The lad looked very good in the EI games.

17-10-2022 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756797#Comment_119756797

Casey's moving the ball fast, but the point I was making was that if Carbery is changing the point of the attack, that's also contributing to the quick ball being generated.

aloooof · 17-10-2022 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756820#Comment_119756820

It is contributing, I just don't think it's as big a factor as 1) the forwards improved accuracy at ruck time or 2) Casey's tempo.

(Tbh, you could potentially add the backs improved accuracy at rucks too; they seem to be tasked with hitting a lot more rucks in this new system, presumably by dint of having more passes per phase, the ball going wider etc.).

A majority seem to think someone else, (most likely one of the forwards) was more deserving of MOTM. That's not at all to say Carbery played poorly. It was his best performance I can remember in a long time, tbh. Possibly his best performance in red this calendar year.

Jump_In_Jack · 17-10-2022 4:59pm

Gavin Coombes could have gotten Player of the Match, I honestly think he is the difference between Munster winning and losing most of the time.

17-10-2022 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756849#Comment_119756849

Yeah, those things are factors, but I do think attacking shape generally is a major factor in quick ruck ball. Leinster at their best last season (the Toulouse semi), or Ireland in NZ demonstrated this perfectly. When you continually move the point of the attack, you're stretching the defence meaning the defence isn't in strong positions to contest the rucks, and the forward momentum makes clearing out that bit easier. Casey's tempo is entirely driven by how quick the ball is available and presented.

FWIW, I don't particularly care about whether Carbery was MotM or not; had it gone to Coombes or Beirne or whoever I wouldn't have objected. I thought he looked a lot better and more comfortable on Saturday night. All I said in my initial comment on him here was he looked to be playing with more confidence and was less tentative in his decision making. I still think Jack Crowley looks to be Munster's best option at 10, he has the best fundamentals in my view.

aloooof · 17-10-2022 5:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756883#Comment_119756883

I'm not sure there's any player in Irish rugby I'd want getting the ball from 5m out. You nearly take it for granted now, his try scoring rate is unreal. Would love to see him get a chance in the AI's.

aloooof · 17-10-2022 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756887#Comment_119756887

I think we agree for the most part.

But for me, accuracy at ruck time will always be the number 1 factor towards quick ball. Everything else is secondary to that like tempo from 9, 10 changing the angle, variation and number of passes per phase, ball placement etc etc.

They all serve to make the next ruck easier, for sure tho.

17-10-2022 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756918#Comment_119756918

Yeah, I do broadly agree, but there are definitely times where regardless of how accurate you are, if you're losing collisions you're going to find it hard to maintain accuracy at ruck time. European Cup Final last year, Leinster didn't suddenly become a bad side at clearing rucks, they just found LAR's defensive shape hard to break down, slowing down the ball. You can't generate quick ruck ball if you're going backwards.

It's like we both said a while ago, the two are obviously circular and inter-connected - quick ruck ball leads to great attacking shape and vice versa. I think a major factor in Munster's quick ruck ball on Saturday evening was they were finding the right collisions and stretching the heavy Bulls pack.

aloooof · 17-10-2022 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756933#Comment_119756933

It's also worth noting our back 5 in the pack, our biggest selection this season. That's no coincidence either.

theVersatile · 17-10-2022 6:31pm

Jesus, usually this place turns into a shipshow when Munster lose, not when they win.

XV for Leinster:

Kilcoyne, Scannell, Archer, Kleyn, Aherne, Beirne, POM, Coombes, Casey, Carbery, Daly, Scannell, Fekitoa, Coombes, Crowley

Barron, Loughman, Knox, Edogbo, O'Donoghue, Murray, Goggin, Hodnett

phog · 17-10-2022 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756887#Comment_119756887

All I said in my initial comment on him here was he looked to be playing with more confidence and was less tentative in his decision making

I would have agreed with you in your OP if that is what you actually said about Joey

Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

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