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Galway traffic

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭Unrealistic



    @kabakuyu "no doubt the Greens will be supporting the 31 property owners who face compulsory purchase orders"

    The Bus Corridor includes 31 CPOs but zero homes. The Ring Road includes a few hundred CPOS with 54 families losing their homes among them. It's not really comparable, is it?

    Post edited by Unrealistic on


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,573 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    You've said it yourself, if you cannot change the 'shape' you reduce the mount of sand or change it's timing and if you cannot change where people live you have to facilitate and incentivse public transport, park and ride, work from home, staggered working/school times etc

    Whether you accept the reality or not we are now decades down the line with tens of millions having been spent with nothing as the outcome and we are as far away now as ever.

    Some solutions have to be found in the short term or as I said accept the mess and move the hell on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    @xckjoo "Don't think there's any truth to the people against the ring road not being from/living in Galway. You see the same couple of people trotting it out when they've no actual arguments in favor of the road to make. Plays on people's emotions and tribalism but doubt there's any truth to it."

    Exactly, I had to laugh at the irony of some poster in Eddie Hoare's Twitter poll complaining that those voting 'no' had never driven through Galway when she herself was from 100km away. The reality is that there is a growing proportion of the population of Galway city and county who understand that the ring road will not improve congestion but just lead to a larger number of people stuck in the same congestion as today over a greater length of roadway. Many who have lived in other cities with well functioning public transport systems. Many who have visited cities where you are not relegated to the third class citizenship just because you are travelling outside of a car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,800 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Is that the reason why? Surely the laden trucks are heading west, then take a wide right turn across four lanes, those walls are not in the way?



  • Registered Users Posts: 482 ✭✭rustyfrog


    Perhaps, that was my guess as they're next to the traffic lights that I hear were being temporarily removed during the operation.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,014 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You sound pretty sure of yourself.

    Green policies are now regarded in this Country as being associated with austerity, whether thats the ending of local peat sales, the piling of carbon taxes on top of already skyrocketing energy costs, or even today, where Hines Property are blaming Government sustainability targets for having to charge customers - and more importantly - low paid staff for Parking at Liffey Valley. That may not be true of course, but either way they are facing a boycott.

    Its a massive fail for successive Governments, because to get anywhere, you have to bring people with you, you must have the carrot outweigh the stick.

    I do care about species extinction, I do care about greenhouse gas emissions. But, I would have gone completely a different way about improving Ireland's position. I would have focussed entirely on greening energy generation 20 or 30 years ago and I would have front loaded serious investments in public transport before battering motorists and introducing absolutely s**t standard cycle facilities.

    As former Labour TD Pat Rabbitte once remarked, the Irish electorate are switched on and they are merciless. You are convinced there is no regression on green policies that have been introduced in this and previous Dáils.

    Let me ask you this. How are those water charges working out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭the_galway_fry


    how many different route choices do dubliners have to cross the liffey or to go from north to south ? the city is a bottleneck because there is literally no other way to get from east to west or vice versa



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭xckjoo



    How many routes do you need? If there's one that isn't filled with thousands of other people sitting in their own cars then why do you need more?

    PT for trips within the city (or P&R if you're commuting from somewhere further out). Car for the trips you can't make by PT (e.g. rural->rural, tradesman, disability, etc.). The vast majority of trips fall into the first category so get those people using PT and then suddenly there's loads of road space for cars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 482 ✭✭rustyfrog


    Taking those actions 20-30 years ago would have been very wise. They didn't happen though, even in the good times when money was rolling in, the governments at the time were only looking to the next reelection.

    That opportunity is missed, what would you do from today's starting position?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,169 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Even if our inept local and national government can organise this public transport miracle across the city, we will still need a new bridge. Anyone who doesn't see that has blinkers on.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Why? There's loads of space on the current bridges if it wasn't for all the cars. If you can't see the issue there then you've the blinkers on and they're keeping you firmly focused on your car.

    Would you take the bus on a daily basis if it was available? If not then what's your reasoning?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,800 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Galway City is forecast to hit 130k people (+48k) by 2040, never mind the surrounding commuter towns - no proper plans on how to move those people around



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,426 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    regarding galway's population:

    "Population growth in Galway City Council’s administrative area was slower than any other local authority in the country"



  • Registered Users Posts: 482 ✭✭rustyfrog


    "Even if" - If they're serious about sorting out public transport after the new road then why not make it part of the same project. Show us the details and extent of their ambition then get approval for both changes as an overall project. It might even balance the books to get past the Climate Action Plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    Where to start?

    Dublin is a city of 1.3m people whereas Galway has 80k and, covers only a fraction of the landmass Dublin does, so the number of crossings is not really a useful comparison. My point was about the percentage change, which is a more useful metric.

    Over the period where Dublin saw a 48% decrease in private car traffic, but increases in numbers of people visiting the centre and increases in numbers living in the centre, it took the following measures:

    • Launched two Luas lines.
    • Reallocated road space from private cars to buses and improved bus speeds/frequency on many routes.
    • Reallocated road space from private cars to cycle lanes and provided secure cycle parking in city council carparks.
    • Added two new bridges that are not accessible to private cars, in addition to two that are.
    • Expanded pedestrianisation.

    Anyone who needs to drive into Dublin city centre can still do so, but many more choose not to than was previously the case, because other attractive options have been made available to them. So your statement that "nothing will remove the cars" is still incorrect. There are many steps that can be taken to reduce the number of private cars travelling on specific routes. Traffic evaporation is a well understood phenomenon at this stage. The flip side of that is that building a ring road will also not remove cars. Induced demand means that traffic will be back to square one in a very short period of time after a new road is opened. When the Quincentenary Bridge was opened it was hailed as the saviour of Galway traffic but it only took four short years before the newspaper articles appeared reporting that the traffic was as bad as it had ever been.

    We will get confirmation in a couple of weeks, as we do multiple times each year, that the reduction in traffic that results from school mid-term breaks can free up Galway traffic. Stats published last week showed that Ireland has a car dependency rate of 76% compared to an EU average of 47%. Imagine the improvements we could see if our secondary school and older primary school students were mostly travelling by public transport, bike or on foot, as they are in most European cities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    Yes, this talk of huge population growth, yet AFAIK, there are very few live construction sites in the city?

    Corrib Great Southern / Dawn Dairies / Connacht Laundry - all idle for years, other than demolition

    East side of Eyre Square - no sign of any development

    Sandy road - I haven't heard any updates?

    Apt block on or near Dyke road car park on Headford road - any update?



  • Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭the_galway_fry




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Didn't know I was here to answer your questions. Did you try Google? I've heard wondrous things. Probably a fad though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,107 ✭✭✭✭ben.schlomo


    Old Ballybane Rd. Rockland Avenue (albeit currently closed). At least 3 developments complete or near complete on the Coast Rd as well as the one at the Coast Rd/Dublin Rd junction. Large apartment block being built beside the Business school on the Prom (assume it's apartments anyway). Crown Square is well under way. That's all off the top of my head.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    About one car bridge over the Liffey per 80,000 people living in Dublin by my quick count plus two train ones, one tram, three pedestrian.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭thebackbar


    theoretically what options are now open to the council if they wish to progress with the ring road ? If it’s re submitted to the board will it not have to be turned down because of the increase in emissions or could the board still grant permission?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Council are confident that the existing plan would still be approved.

    The plan wasn't rejected, rather Bord planala accepted that they failed to take the carbon emission thing into consideration, so approval wasn't granted fairly. It is not the case that they changed their mind, and that the plan has failed



  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭thebackbar


    I really don’t know enough about the new climate act, but I’m struggling to see where the council is getting its confidence for it to be approved given their data show that emissions will increase.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What follows is a look at the proposed Park & Rides for Galway City as presented by GCC to Councilors recently. Various attachments referenced are included at the end of the post. Its a long post, but it condenses down nearly 50 pages of content from the NTA & GCC, so hopefully its of interest

    First up, some bits from the NTA draft proposal for P&R's for Galway City.

    Vision

    To support sustainable growth in the regions, urban areas, and rural settlements through enhancing connectivity to high quality, accessible, low emission, and sustainable transport; empowering modal shift and increasing the catchment areas of existing and future public transport by delivering a network of appropriate Park and Ride facilities.

    Objectives for Park & Ride

    To maximise the opportunities provided by on-going investment in public transport infrastructure and services, particularly in relation to the commencement of service of new public transport projects.

    1. To provide the appropriate type and scale of Park & Ride at the right locations, with connectivity to the road and public transport networks and design that supports integration with the surrounding walking and cycling network.
    2. Reduce reliance on the private car, reduce distances travelled by car and ensure Park & Ride facilitates greater use of sustainable modes.
    3. Deliver an enhanced customer experience through safe, secure, and user-friendly facilities that considers opportunities for interchange and to address barriers to public transport use.
    4. To set the standard for the design and layout of Park & Ride sites.

    Plans & Strategies

    There's a long LOOOOONG list of documents that call these out for Galway city, going back nearly 2 decades. I won't list them, but they cover several pages of the NTA document

    Demand

    The figures shown below are morning peak numbers only, not rush hour totals or AADT figures

    To show why this is an issue, taking a quick look at the Claregalway (Loughgeorge) traffic counter on the TII site shows the following for that counter (note, I think they have North & South mixed up on their site)

    So the 1390 figure they list is pretty much blown out of the water by 7am, with hourly figures of between 500-800 until about 7 in the evening. A weekday average traffic count for this location is going towards the city is just shy of 10,000 vehicles. Just to remind you, the P&R proposed is for 320 spaces and the bus service will only run to Parkmore. With such a limited size and scope for that location in particular, I can't see how this can ever be a high frequency service of the kind needed to entice users

    The overview

    • 6 sites
    • Total of 1790 spaces (includes 140 pre-existing)

    At first glance

    The positives are

    • this is a good geographical spread with a facility on almost all arterial routes.
    • includes bus lanes on some sections

    The negatives are

    • the sizes are woefully below what is needed before they are even built
    • there should be one on the N67 before Oranmore to save people having to drive through the village to get to the P&R
    • There should be one on the R446 (Old Dublin rd)
    • the bus lanes, where proposed, are inadequate. Anyone who has ever been stuck in Claregalway or on the M6/N6 can see from the red lines on the map above, that congestion extends well beyond the proposed bus lanes which defeats the whole purpose
    • No bus priority measures planned for any of the others which means anyone using the service will be taking a diversion, parking, waiting for a bus, getting to the end of the bus travel, walk and do the same in reverse, all while not getting any benefit of quicker travel. Doesn't seem very enticing and will likely have low takeup as a result on all those other locations
    • The N6 P&R looks like its intended to take traffic from the N6/M6 as well as the Monivea Road, can't see many Monivea rd users taking the diversion without the benefit of a full bus lane as previously mentioned.

    The sequence of implementation

    The 3 circled in green will be built in the short term (in GCC speak, this means a <10 year timeframe) with the Oranmore site seeing an extension to the existing carpark to double the size of it. Note the N83 (Tuam rd) site is only planned to have a bus service to and from Parkmore

    The N59 has a site ready for the P&R but adding a bus lane complicates this one so its on a "longer" timeframe, see 10+ years

    The R336 (Barna rd) and N84 (Headford rd) are listed as maybe, possibly, hopefully, being done under BusConnects despite there being nothing in BusConnects about these facilities

    Physical Infrastructure

    Looking at the N6 P&R facility first

    Things to note

    • Horrendously undersized (550) for the potential volume of users, should be 4 times as big
    • Bus priority lanes are actually only towards the city, so returning to your car in the evenings, yeah, enjoy that 1 hour bus ride to go 1-2km
    • Granted the drawing is light on detail, but nothing indicating shelters or provision for bikes. Secure bike storage facilities should be a default for these as they are within easy cycling distance for those who wish to do choose this mode (why wouldn't you want more choosing to avoid driving into the city)
    • As mentioned, bus lane is too short
    • Without some form of camera monitoring or bus gate access, the bus lane will be swamped by cars "chancing their arm" on a daily basis. The hard shoulder is, the bus lane will be no different

    Next up, Claregalway

    Things to note

    • Same comment regarding shelters and secure bike storage
    • Also horrendously undersized (320 spaces) for the potential volume of users, should be 3 times as big
    • The bus lanes.....where to start. None north of Claregalway to the P&R, intermittent North/South lanes after that. This will not entice users in any way. There should be a full bus lanes from the site, to Parkmore junction
    • One positive, based on the drawings it looks like they are planning additional paths. If there is scope to widen these even a little, they could be a shared surface allowing safe cycling to and from the P&R site (if they ran both sides)

    Lastly, Oranmore, no need to add a pic, they are just doubling the size of the existing facility. Has the same issues, even doubling it, it will still be undersized, there's no plans for secure bike storage and so on. Note this one doesn't come under the bus lanes as its served by rail only

    Next steps

    Per the presentation

    • Preparation of Options Selection Reports
    • Preparation of planning documentation including Environmental Impact Assessment Reports
    • Discussion with landowners on agreements
    • Development of options for bus services
    • Submission of Planning Applications (target mid 2023)

    Honestly, I don't see these going into planning before 2024, possibly 2025. If the bus lanes are part of the applications you might be looking at 2026 or later with GCC having form for this, see the GTS which was released in 2016 and the first bus lane planning application was submitted just 4 weeks ago.

    As an aside, I know I am critical here, but I think rightfully so. They have been talking about this since the mid 2000's and now what is proposed looks like the Salthill bike lane in nature i.e. designed in such a way as to fail before its even had a chance to be a success.

    With just a little bit more ambition, this proposal could have been amazing.

    • Increase the sizes
    • Include the missing routes
    • Get them all built within 5 years
    • Full bus lanes to all
    • and so on

    It should also be noted, that without workplace parking levies or congestion charges, these will also face low user numbers. Carrot & stick and all that jazz




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An excellent article covering the quashing of the planning permission for the ring road




  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭thebackbar


    thanks for that @Dades incredibly disappointing plan for park and ride.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Car park owner says cars are great and we need more roads




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I assume you data could show that for every single road being built.


    With this road, you need to look long term.

    How do you improve public transport, in and around the city?

    You take cars out.


    How do you get cars out of the city?

    You give them an alternative route to where they want to be.


    Public transport can not, and does not serve all potential journeys. It is not feasible to have public transport that meets everyone's needs.

    The best you can do, is provide an interlinked, reliable service that covers maybe 40% of all journeys, but closer to 70% of journeys to the city center.


    A common journey that cannot be solves by public transport, is a family of 4, travelling from Claregalway to Pearse Stadium.

    A family should be able to travel this 15km journey (approx) in less than 15minutes

    A ringroad/outer bypass would make this more achievable



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  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭thebackbar


    A genuine question, and again i don't have much knowledge of the climate act but can new roads be built that are compliant with the Climate act ?

    I'm struggling to see how the family of four will be able to get into Pearse Stadium in 15 mins from Claregalway with the ring road in place, surely they will be a huge backlog off the ring road getting into Pearse Stadium ? especially with all the bus lanes that will be in place between the ring road and pearse stadium.



This discussion has been closed.
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