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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,310 ✭✭✭Cork2021


    With 3 weeks to go until we play the boks, what’s the starting 15 in people’s minds? Mine would be

    Hansen Lowry Baloucoune

    Henshaw Ringrose

    Sexton Casey

    Beirne Doris VDF

    Henderson(if fit) Ryan

    Porter Sheehan Furlong

    bench

    Herring,

    Healy

    Bealham

    O Mahony

    Conan

    Murray

    Frawley

    Mccloskey



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,747 ✭✭✭Shehal


    Not confident in it happening but with Kelleher's injury I would love to see Tom Stewart potentially fast tracked into the set up, I obviously wouldnt play him against SA but for NZL XV & Fiji he could do a job based on what I've seen from him. Farrell does have a tendency of picking players regardless of their standing at their province if the player fits his system he'll pick them and Stewart looks the closest thing we have to Kelleher/Sheehan in terms of playing style. I would much rather pick Stewart who's a huge prospect and have an eye to the future than pick a Scannell/Heffernan who is only going to be a tackle bag holder/ emergency pick and will never be more than that and tbh it would be a wasted opportunity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭accensi0n




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    i hope not... such a superhero for Ireland since 2009...

    he does have limits, but if he comes on at 60 mins, I have no problem with that,,,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,823 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Keenan (Lowry if Keenan isn't ready), Hansen, Ringrose, Henshaw, Lowe, Sexton, Gibson Park (when is he due back?)

    Porter, Kelleher, Furlong, Beirne, Ryan, Conan, Van Der Flier, Doris

    Herring, Healy, O'Toole, Baird (Henderson if fit), Coombes (plenty of options here), Casey, Carbery, McCloskey

    The No.23 Jersey is interesting, I was thinking Jimmy O'Brien, but then we've no Centre cover. McCloskey covers centre, Ringrose covers wing, Carbery and Hansen (I think) covers FB.

    Not sure if I've forgotten anyone.

    There's a few other lads that should be looked at as well.

    I'd also like to see Stewart, Ahern, Doak and Crowley get a go against Fiji, but it's unlikely, Ahern may have a chance and maybe at a push Doak if Gibson Park is injured, but this is more hope than expectation on my part.

    It should be a good series anyway. It's important that we don't fall into the old trap of thinking that the squad that was good enough to beat NZ in July 2022 is necessarily the right squad to compete for a WC in the Autumn of 2023. Not sure what that means for November 2022 though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,310 ✭✭✭Cork2021


    Looking at injuries isn’t Farrell better to play players who’ve minutes got? JGP Lowe Keenan have had zero and when will they be due back? You’d assume this weekend is the last time any of the main players from the provinces play and go into camp with Ireland next Monday?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    1. Furlong
    2. Kelleher
    3. Porter
    4. Jenkins
    5. Beirne
    6. O'Mahony
    7. van der Flier
    8. Doris
    9. Casey
    10. Sexton
    11. Hansen
    12. Henshaw
    13. Ringrose
    14. Baloucoune
    15. O'Brien
    16. Kelleher
    17. Henderson
    18. Healy
    19. Bealham
    20. Gibson-Park

    21. O'Mahony



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,823 ✭✭✭✭bilston




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,310 ✭✭✭Cork2021




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,310 ✭✭✭Cork2021




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    who is 22?

    POM was one of the players of the series in the summer and now he doesnt even make the 23? riiiiight......



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I think for the Boks we'll need to beef up the pack a bit. Whether that means Coombes coming in, or Beirne shifting to the backrow with one of POM or VDF being an impact player from the bench. Henderson being injured probably makes the former the more likely. But if Beirne was to move to 6, the options at lock to go alongside Ryan would be Treadwell, McCarthy or possibly Ahern. It would be a big ask for McCarthy or Ahern to debut against South Africa. But I'd have no fears over Treadwell starting after how well he went over the summer and his form over the last year.

    Anyway, I'd go with something like

    15.Lowry 14.Baloucoune 13.Ringrose 12.Henshaw 11.Hansen 10.Sexton 9.Cooney 1.Porter 2.Sheehan 3.Furlong 4.Treadwell 5.Ryan 6.Beirne 7.VDF 8.Doris

    16.Herring 17.Loughman 18.Bealham 19.McCarthy 20.POM 21.Casey 22.Crowley 23.McCloskey



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,258 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    John Cooney hasn't been part of an Ireland squad in years. He's clearly not getting called up now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,258 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Of course. But barring a complete change in selection policy, Cooney isn't getting selected and everyone knows it. We should at least post likely squads.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    i know the general line is to select a bigger pack against SA but i dont see that as a good idea. if we try and take them on with sheer physicality thats never going to work so we would be much better off picking a fast and skillful set of forwards to try and outsmart/outplay them. the pack from the summer has alot of that with a few decent ball carriers mixed in when needed



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    I'd agree with that. It didn't work out too well for the Lions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I'm not saying we should change our gameplan and go after the Boks at their own game and try to take them on physically. I'm saying we should consider getting maybe one bigger body in the pack to prevent us getting bullied. It's not the same thing. Picking Beirne at 6 doesn't prevent us playing our game, it just beefs up the pack a bit. I'd be quite concerned about a back 5 of Beirne, Ryan, POM, VDF and Doris going up against the South Africa pack. I think they'd find it very tough to live with them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    The Lions failed because they tried to beat the Boks at their own game. That's not at all what I'm proposing.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,512 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Should probably exclude South African internationals in that case.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,284 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The likely squad will be that which beat NZ, adjusted for injuries. Experimenting will happen in the NZ and Fiji games, that's what they're there for.

    I'd say if Keenan gets through 60 minutes against Scarlets, he'll play against SA, same for Lowe.

    Doesn't sound like JGP is going to make it though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,630 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Looks like Beirne has an injury! So if Henderson is out also it would be Treadwell? I think McCarthy will get a shot too. The injuries are piling up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    Yeah, we're in agreement. My point was that the Lions approach of trying to out muscle South Africa didn't work out too well.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    So we've had that 32-year-old John Cooney may have 'matured a bit' in the last two years to pending World Player of the Year nominee Josh Van Der Flier possibly being an impact player from the bench.

    This is all very funny.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Ryan, Henderson and Beirne might all be injured. Or at least are all carrying knocks.

    You'd have to go back a long way to find at test match against a tier 1 nation where at least one of them didn't start. Maybe 5 years when Toner and Donnacha ryan were paired together.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    i dont think adding one extra bigger player would make much of a difference though to be honest, while it would take out one of our best players from the summer. im not saying its a terrible idea but for me its a bit too much of trying to play against their gameplan rather than playing to ours, much as i take your point



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    The reality is, if Beirne shifts to 6, one of VDF or POM has to drop to the bench. Why is that very funny? Sure if I had only suggested POM, I'd have been crucified in here for the mere suggestion that one of our best performers over the summer has a change in role.

    It's 2022. It's a 23-man game. Test Lion and player of the 6N nominee in 2021 Tadhg Beirne was an impact player for us last November. We need to stop being so narrow minded in how we view selections. Look at how South Africa use their front rowers. They finish the game with their strongest front row rather than start with it and finish with their weaker one. They literally start games with the best hooker in the world on the bench. But the idea of VDF coming on for POM in the 50th minute so that he can make maximum impact in the biggest minutes of the game get's laughed at. The mere suggestion of anything outside the box here gets mocked.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    To follow on from TRC's post, one slightly left-wing suggestion that, in past, I remember being dismissed here (and I was probably on that side of the argument tbh) is Ringrose as a wing option. (It might've been yourself TRC that suggested it).

    Farrell has already proven to be reasonably happy with a centre in the 23 jersey (Farrell, Hume and Henshaw have all been selected there). I'm not sure I'd ever start him there, but it gives a bit more flexibility to the Ringrose, Aki and Henshaw question if we ever have all of them available.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I think that was me.. I was suggesting Ringrose as a potential option on the wing with henshaw 12 and Hume 13.

    The suggestion was $hat on..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    and quite rightly imo unless he starts playing there more for leinster

    if ringrose/hume are in the 23 jersey and a winger got injured, id personally prefer to bring carbery on at 15 (presuming he's the 22) and move keenan over, think ringrose is too important at 13 and potentially hume would be too



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,258 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Ringrose isn't quick enough to play on the wing. He's also the best 13 available to us so moving him out doesn't really strengthen the side.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭ersatz


    So much of this is about form and Ringrose seems to be off to a flying start this season, but all things being equal is there that much between him and Henshaw at 13?



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    It's mad that every single year this rubbish conversation around Garry Ringrose takes place despite the fact he is the best in his position.

    It's genuinely mad. It was suggested he would be dropped to move Henshaw to 13 and play Aki at 12, then McCloskey, and now all of a sudden Robbie Henshaw is best at 12 and James Hume should play at 13 instead and Ringrose should probably make way, again.

    We don't deserve any of the talent we have at our disposal. There's always a handful of players that are completely sh*t on for no reason whatsoever.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Nobody has “completely sh*t on” anybody here. That’s a massive overreaction.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    You're not even thinking outside of the box though, you're making absolute rubbish suggestions

    Why should one of POM or VDF be dropped to accommodate Beirne in the back row? What's the actual purpose of it? Only a mad man would drop one of the best players in World Rugby this year for the sake of playing somebody else. It's sheer lunacy and it seems you're suggesting it for no other reason other than the pre-conceived notion that we have to do something outside the box.

    Your excuse for Cooney coming back into the side was that he has perhaps 'matured' a bit in the last two years. He's 32. If he was of any use to the coaching ticket he'd be one of the leaders right now but, he's not. And those petulant remarks he made as a 30 year old suggest that there is a bigger attitude problem at play here. Good riddance.

    Now the entire second/back row needs a shake up. Why? Also, why can't Beirne be the one to come off the bench and make an impact? Why should it be the best player we have had in the last 12 months to play the last 20 minutes?

    There's a bang of that video of the bloke in Dublin who claimed he was a big Pats fan talking about 'keeping the good men on the bench and then bam, Bob's your uncle, Mary's your aunty', from that suggestion. It isn't backed up by anything and is purely kite-flying.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Right, and Ringrose just blew the lights out on the wing for Leinster, it's not unreasonable to consider whether he might show up on the wing for Ireland if circumstances force Farrel's hand for whatever reason.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I’m not saying start him there, but it opens the door for 12. Henshaw 13. Ringrose and 23. Aki.

    We know Farrell seems comfortable with a centre in the 23 jersey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    agreed, although im not against trying hume out against strong opposition either, ideally from the bench imo



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    It's not a massive over-reaction. Everytime we get close to international windows and talking about potential, Ringrose has to make way either for the latest flavour of the month or people just outright lie about perceived 'average form' from him to make some weird excuse around why he should be dropped.

    You could go all the way back to 2018, when so many here were saying Chris f*cking Farrell should have the 13 jersey because he played well in one game while Ringrose was out injured and Ringrose came back into the side against Scotland and put all of those nay-sayers back in their box. Ever since then there has been a weird idea that Ringrose isn't good enough and that Aki/McCloskey/Hume/whoever would be a better option alongside Henshaw when there is zero evidence to back up the idea that there is a better pairing than the Henshaw/Ringrose tandem.

    You can gaslight me all you want (like you tend to do) by saying I'm over-reacting or pretending that these conversations never happen here, but they do. Moving Ringrose out to the wing to accommodate someone else has been suggested more than once now.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I can see that logic, and it’d still leave you space for a centre at 23 in case of an injury there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    true too. i suppose having a relatively versatile backline means whatever combination of bench/starters should cover most bases

    id be more concerned about the lack of a standout back up at 15. lowry and o brien are fairly decent but i cant see either being in the rwc squad to be honest. id like to see carbery and conway getting some gametime there even if they arent playing there for munster. both are likely to be in the squad and both have been pretty good there in the past



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Could we go easy on the personal stuff there, chief, and just stick to the rugby.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    It's not gaslighting. Your posts are a super intense reaction to what is, at the end of the day, a forum where people discuss their (let's be honest - inconsequential) thoughts and ideas about a sport they enjoy. Nobody is ******** on Ringrose. It's because we have such a pool of talent at centre that people are talking about different ways of getting exciting players on the field. Relax - as I said, it's inconsequential.... it's just chat.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    You literally said I was over-reacting, so don't get personal with me if you don't want it to be dished back at you.

    This conversation about dropping/moving Ringrose has been happening for years. Every time someone else pops up onto the scene, Ringrose has to make way.

    Don't tell me I'm over-reacting when I'm constantly making this same point at every international window. How is it an over-reaction when this is not the first time this conversation has been had?



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    When this conversation about dropping/moving Ringrose happens nearly every international window since 2018, it goes from being 'inconsequential' to being completely disrespectful. I stand by that.

    Don't tell me this is anything else. It's been going on for far too long when there is nothing to show for it other than an odd dislike for the man.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,751 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Jesus calm yourself. Its not outrageous to claim Henshaw is a better 13 than Ringrose. As for the rest of your post...yeah maybe take a break



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Can you point me to a post over the last few pages where anyone has "completely sh*t on" Ringrose?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    What's wrong with trying out a new combination for the sake of it? We know the quality of Henshaw and Ringrose, might be good to see how Hume, Frawley, or even someone like Osbourne do in an otherwise full strength team.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    There's your bad faith again.

    When a conversation about dropping/moving a player to accommodate another flavour of the month consistently happens, it's outright disrespect. You can dress it up whatever way you want but you and I have had this conversation more than once and everytime you try to gaslight me on it. So with the greatest of respect, either debate properly or don't debate at all.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    There's your bad faith again.

    You claimed certain players are "completely sh*t on". I'm merely asking you to point to the posts where that happened. (If you think that's "bad faith", I'm not sure you understand what "bad faith" means).

    ... it's outright disrespect. You can dress it up whatever way you want but you and I have had this conversation more than once and everytime you try to gaslight me on it.

    I said something as mild as suggesting Ringrose as a wing option giving us greater flexibility around the 23 jersey, and admitted it was:

    1. A left wing suggestion
    2. Probably agreed previously with the idea being dismissed and
    3. That I'm not sure I'd ever want him to start on the wing.

    That's in the context of:

    1. Farrell fairly regularly selecting centres at 23 and
    2. Ringrose having a pretty brilliant 60 minutes very recently on the wing.

    From there, you've come back with "completely sh*tting on players", "outright disrespect", "bad faith" and "gaslighting".

    So with the greatest of respect, I think I'll stick to my conclusion of it being a massive overreaction.



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