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Dealer pocketed farmer's payment for bullock he transported.

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24

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    Are the culls going straight to the factory by any chance



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,601 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    No. They go into his herd, a dealer herd number, he'll probably sell them onto someone else



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,661 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It has nothing to do with the department or the head vet. The procurement manager already know the animal came from the farmers herd. Therefore it's a simple debt collection issue nothing to do with anybody or anything else.

    Unless see below

    Whelan are you saying that the calf dealer is able to take calves and cows from your herd without you starting the process on Agfood similar to the way a mart can.

    @tanko & Anto Meath

    If they can and this agent had this ability then it's a departmental issue where you report the animal stolen to AGS and you know where it was slaughtered illegally. Now the processor is the receiver of stolen good. In this case it's no longer a debt or civil case the AGS will be one involved.

    In this case check into who'es herd number the animal went was it the processors or the agent

    . If it's the processors then it's a civil legal action against them for non payment.

    If it went into the agents herd number then it theft so it's AGS.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,601 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    Yes the dealer moves the animal from my herd like a mart does. I think he needs the card to do this



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    The dealer is using the DAFM export approved company to transfer the calves/cows into his or another herd. Other than marts export approved operators are the only ones that can do it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,601 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    This is probably what the dealer did with your man's bullock



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    I'm sure if the farmer checks online he will find the bullock wasn't transferred out of his herd.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,601 ✭✭✭✭whelan2




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,999 ✭✭✭893bet


    I am half annoying thinking about this all day.


    Anyone with a power here on boards. A solicitor maybe with a farming interest that will to draft a letter. Don’t reveal yourself on here or you will be inundated but a PM to the Origional poster maybe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    Maybe Tanko can confirm the animal was transferred from the farmer's herd before slaughter as it's very common for dealers to get animals killed in the farmers name and the dealer been sent the cheque.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,024 Mod ✭✭✭✭greysides


    POST BY TANKO THAT GOT MISSED IN THE THREAD SPLITTING:


    Tonynewholland6:34 pm

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119761364#Comment_119761364

    Maybe Tanko can confirm the animal was transferred from the farmer's herd before slaughter as it's very common for dealers to get animals killed in the farmers name and the dealer been sent the cheque.


    No, the animal was never in the dealers herd, it went directly from the farmers herd number to the factory number.

    I wouldn’t have thought it very common for dealers to be sent the cheque for animals they never owned. When i book cattle into a factory through a factory agent, the cheque is sent to me, not the agent. Why would it be any different through a dealer?

    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. Joseph Joubert

    The ultimate purpose of debate is not to produce consensus. It's to promote critical thinking.

    Adam Grant



  • Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭cezanne


    Wherever there is profit from animals there is multi dirty dealing and dealers are the lowest scum on the earth. They have no respect for an animal and treat them appallingly i have witnessed it in my local mart. Just because an animal is going to die doesnt mean he should be treated poorly. I am sorry for the farmer in thsi case as there are a lot of older farmers being ripped off every other day .



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,661 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    This is fairly open and shut so deal with the processors only. It's the processors problem to recover it from the agent. That agent will get no leeway in future

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    The owner can only make a permit, the animal can only be moved from the herd it’s in and accepted by the buyer into his herd. Anything else is fraud.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,601 ✭✭✭✭whelan2




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭dar31


    id be contacting the relevant Dvo, and finding out the movement/payment of animals

    happened with out owners permission. Douth processor/vet on duty or dealer want Dvo sniffing around their herd no.s



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    A mart has a license to accept animals in to the mart for sale only on the day specified under the license, a calf/ animal exporter has a license to do it for animals into the export herd number. There is a difference between an export number and a dealer number ( brass plate). The export number is supervisions from Dept staff on site which allows them to do this, a brass plate dealer is a once a year check from the Dvo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    No that is not what I said. I said a DAFM approved export company facility can move animals into different herds the same as marts can. The dealer that is buying the calves from you is either working on commission for the export company in which case the export company pays you direct or else he is buying them from you and paying you and he sells them to the export company. Either way they do not enter his herd but go straight to the export companies special herd number as which point they can either export them if suitable or sell them to another farmer within the state which isn't that unusual.

    Edit to add - a dealer number is just basically a herd number that allows the movement of over 100 animals in a three month period without drawing a cross compliance inspection. It does NOT allow them to work outside the normal AIMS certificate of compliance rules.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭older by the day


    Maybe try the IFA office for advice or an other union first. Especially if you're friend don't want the agro. We all know the lad that would rather them keep 1500 than cause a fuss. A solicitor letter to the factory would definitely get things going. I would imagine 100 euro would cover it.

    The only way cattle dealers are transferring between herds with out log in details is through the mart system. Dealers and the mart system may have a deal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,830 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    No need to report any animal as stolen. It wasn't stolen. The animal was sent to the processor and the processor hasn't paid for it. So the processor owes the owner for it. That they decided to give some free money to a dealer is a separate matter. The dealer might have held himself out to be some kind of agent for the owner, but that is between the factory and the dealer.


    From the factory's perspective, it's probably not the dealer's first time sending to them, nor the last time. So they should have no bother recovering their money. But that is of no concern to the owner.


    Either a solicitor's letter or just go to the Small Claims Court.

    The factory could claim they bought the animal in good faith so they didn't do anything "wrong". I don't know how well that excuse would fly given the animal was still registered. The keeper of the herd does not have to be the owner. If they did indeed accept an item in good faith, then the default would be that the item in question is returned, but obviously that can't be done after being killed. Technically the legal title to the animal would not have been handed over to the dealer even though the animal was handed over. There would have been no consideration for that transaction. You can have scenarios though in theory where you hand an item to a scammer, who then sells it on, and the third party can "keep" the item even though you aren't paid for it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭kk.man


    I'm being the devil's advocate here..the dealer will say he bought the animal from the farmer at an agreed price for cash.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Get your friend to contact the one in his area. I'd be very surprised if they didn't get it sorted.

    https://www.ifa.ie/sector-committees/cattle-committee/



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,661 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    No proof no judge or any legal professional will even entertain it.

    There is precedence here. Processors never followed theses through when challenged.

    Registered letter informing them you send in an animal with tag number xxxxxxx and have not received payment. If you do not receive payment you will be instructing your legal advisor and they will have to bear the extra cost

    No mention about anything else

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,830 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    IFA have a helpline for legal issues as well I think. Never contacted them but it's in the member booklet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,477 ✭✭✭Jb1989


    Either way the factory done wrong, writing a cheque to a different a name than the owner of that animal when it was on the kill line.

    Paper evidence versus hearsay from a dealer paying cash.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭Base price




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    I agree with you totally that it's wrong but I know it's happening with years in all factories Obviously the dealer is basically telling the factory to send him the cheque and the factory is saying no problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    The mart can’t put a animal through the mart system unless the animal is shown to have gone through the mart only on license day. One mart manager was doing middle man between cattle on the land and feed lot owners and charging a fee to weight the cattle and put them through the cams, the mart was pulled up for doing it on days he shouldn’t have used the cmms and license was suspended for the mart.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    A dealer brass plate herd number is open to cross compliance inspection at any time.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,479 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    It's theft. Plain and plain and simple.

    Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001

    6.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.

    (2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.

    I would put it in writing to the dealer that it would appear the factory has paid them the sum of €1500 for your animal and request them to forward the payment to you.

    If no payment is received follow up with a solicitors letter, looking for the €1500 plus the cost of the solicitors letter.

    In the solicitor's letter mention that if payment is not received their client will have no option but to report the theft, under section 6 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001.

    If it comes to it, do report it to the gadaí. Going in with the knowledge that it is an offense under section 6 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 makes it less likely to be told it's a 'civil matter'.



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