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Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Well that's fair enough, but realistically the Gardaí were associating the Airhill man with Bailey for a couple of weeks before they outed "Fiona". If Ceri Williams had said on her questionnaire that she was in Schull on the Saturday, I would imagine they would have been asking her did she see Bailey that day at quite an early stage in the investigation. Once Marie said it was the same man in the three sightings, then they would have been sure the Kealfada man was Bailey, even before she officially identified him.



  • Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Marie Farrell is a totally unreliable witness who loves the drama of the whole thing. She would see the second coming of Christ if it would get her publicity or benefit her in some way. Why are we even discussing her evidence?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,642 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    He was a court reporter... I think you left out a few followup sentences there as an explanation because what you have so far is nonsense.

    How would this come up in a court? Was someone accused of deploying such a tactic in a murder trial?

    He was also supposed to have carried out this murder in an unprovoked drunken rage.

    Yet has the presence of mind to think back to this...

    Pull the other one.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    He would have understood the implications of getting into the car with blood on his clothes after his sobering "Wtf have I just done?" moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,642 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Ever heard of 'not thinking straight'? That's just as likely to happen.

    So it's not a sure thing he would have reacted like that.

    Or even that would he have even realised he had blood on him?

    And even if he had, there's a massive jump from there to the tactic of taking the clothes off and driving home like that.

    You try to wave it away with "Oh, he was a court reporter"

    You're trying to make a lot of jumps there, not convincing to me at all.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I`m making no jumps. He may not have driven there at all. But if it was a drunken rage, I would imagine he sobered up and came to his senses quite soon afterwards once he realized the enormity of what he had just done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Then he would have understood the implications about getting his story right and sticking to it. He had plenty time.

    Instead, he was all over the place, contradicting himself, telling lies that could be easily disproved, playing cat and mouse with the Investigators. He would have been ready, and certainly not stupid enough to sh1t outside his own back door by burning evidence there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Ok. But that makes assumptions about his state of mind over Christmas and whether he was drinking or not. Furthermore, if was afraid that he had contaminated the mattress, then he realistically had only one way of disposing of it. It had to be burned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭tinytobe



    The question is, why burn something as burning can be smelled and seen from a distance? Why not dispose of any incriminating evidence in the ocean, off some cliff?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Because there is no guarantee throwing off a cliff or in ocean will not be found. Can you really not see that?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I suppose there's always a chance of being stopped by the Gardaí en route with the evidence.

    I believe they liked to keep an eye on Ian.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    That's exactly it. Either seen burning something, or caught with the evidence in the car, the risk seems equally high.

    Also, do we know if Ian Bailey owned a police radio scanner? I think they were legal in Ireland back then, and journalists often had one, if they were covering crime. It's not impossible that Ian had one as well?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    That's exactly it. Either seen burning something, or caught with the evidence in the car, the risk seems equally high.

    By that logic that limits the possible suspects to someone in Ireland at the time who had a car, or use of a car, and burned rubbish in the week or so following the murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭nc6000


    I know he was a journalist back in the UK but was he really a journalist when he moved to Ireland? I get the impression he mainly did odd jobs and wrote the occasional newspaper article.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It was probably freelance work. Also people don't move to the Mizen Head for big money and career ambitions, at least not back in the mid 90ies.

    Owning a scanner being able to pick up police radio was the norm for many journalists covering crime, back in the analogue days. It'll be a surprise, if Bailey didn't own a police scanner. This would always also explain, how he knew what he knew, and ahead of time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭nc6000


    But he's adamant he didn't know about any murder until the phone call around lunchtime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    So we all heard. Also, at this point it doesn't matter when somebody knew what, - it's matching killer to crime scene which matters, as we all know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭dublin49


    I am reading this right,contradicting himself,telling lies and potentially disposing of evidence points to his innocence .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,642 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yes.

    Story A

    Apparently, he is guilty, and he's forensics aware enough to drive in a car undressed to not contaminate the car.

    But not aware enough, in winter, to wear clothes to conceal scratches he got at the murder scene... Easily done... come down with a convenient flu. Wear long clothes and hat when out and about.

    But not aware enough to get rid of the incriminating clothes, just when he is out and about before any suspicion has landed on him...

    But instead lights a bonfire on his property which can be seen by all and sundry.

    Or

    Story B

    he didn't dispose of any evidence so didn't realise a bonfire would be a sign of guilt.

    And, he didn't get scratched at the scene, so didn't realise he needed to conceal scratches that other would see as a sign of guilt.

    Story A is not credible for me.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    As @odyssey06 said , also, If he was guilty he would have gotten his story ready, he had plenty time.

    I was responding to the poster who said ;"He would have understood the implications of getting into the car with blood on his clothes "

    If he was so aware he would also have understood the importance of having all his ducks in a row, re his story.

    Instead his account was all over the place.

    So yes, the fact that he wasn't prepared with a plausible story, points to his innocence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭dublin49


    but would the truth not be a plausible never changing story requiring no preparation or thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,642 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Not necessarily.

    Factor in that Bailey had had a hectic 48 hours and was drinking that night.

    Innocent people answer questions, probably when they shouldn't, under pressure, in response to a particular phrasing. On reflection, they may realise, well actually ... or they may have clear forgotten something seemingly trivial at that time - until reminded by someone else.

    They don't have their story thought out, prepp'd and rehearsed in advance.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The story with the scratches Bailey had on him is something as well.

    If the scratches were from the murder site, he must have left his DNA somewhere.

    If not at the murder site, then in the car, also it's a bit hard to drive somebody's car and not leaving any evidence, if one has scratches and is bleeding. Steering wheel, indicator, gear shift, etc.. and that all after several drinks in the pub.

    Suppose the police stopped him that night, naked and only underwear on, reeking of booze and bleeding on his hands and partially from the face? The Guards would have known that something was odd, incompetent as they were or pretended to be.....

    I don't think that's all credible, even though I would never exclude Bailey as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,642 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    What I would exclude is Bailey having carried it out as per the Garda narrative.

    I wouldn't exclude Bailey entirely, but at this stage, I don't just think he is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, I think he is innocent on balance of probabilities.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The story is told now, if it's the truth he's innocent. ie. he got up and did some work, and heard nothing until 2pm.

    If it's fabricated he's likely guilty, ie. he lied and said he got up and worked and heard nothing.

    It's the same story, but he'd have made a better job of it fabricating it.

    The lie would have be a plausible never changing story requiring preparation and thought, which he was well capable of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    He was prepared with a plausible story. He said he was in bed all night and Jules corroborated. If they had both stuck to that he would be ok, even if his talk got loose with drink. But then Marie came along with Kealfada and Jules, for a while at least, lost faith in him and the truth came spilling out. Yes he had been up all night, yes he had expressed a desire to go up by Sophie`s house, yes there was a scratch on his head that she hadn`t seen the previous night. Kealfada may be a fiction but it actually opened up everything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "not aware enough to wear clothes to conceal scratches."

    He had an excuse for scratches. How would he explain Sophie`s blood in his car?

    "Not aware enough to get rid of the incriminating clothes, just when he is out and about"

    So bloodstained clothes in the car and the area swarming with Gardaí. Wow. The fire makes more sense by the minute.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    That was not good plausible story, he would not have said he was in bed all night if there was a chance Jules discovered he wasn't.

    All he needed to do was tell Jules in the morning that he got up in the night and left the house to do some work, he would have figured this out, if as you say, he was smart enough to drive home after the murder and not leave any clue in the car. which is where all this started.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,642 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    One minute he can hike across West Cork by moonlight whenever he wants... next, he can't get about because he'd be stopped by Guards!

    Was 'the area' swarming with Guards? He'd no way of getting past the very small area where the Guards were, to somewhere they weren't...

    Why would he be stopped?

    Your narrative of the murder gets less plausible with each post.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "The fire makes more sense by the minute."

    He could have used his big coat to send out smoke signals!



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes.

    He cannot have been so acutely aware of the need to hide any evidence linking him to the crime, that h cunningly stripped off at the scene and drove home in his birthday suit, whilst simultaeneously being naive enough to not realise the critical need to get his alibi straight and keep his mouth shut.

    But, of course, that is obvious to most people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 936 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Regardless of Bailey's innocence or guilt..

    His actions following the murder, and subsequent Garda interviews are bizarre to say the the very least..

    For me, the elephant in the room is the time he claims he was officially notified about the murder.

    Cassidy and Bailey both agree on 1.40pm on the day of the murder.

    Yet, multiple people have submitted statements to the contrary...

    They were seen (with Jules) out and about from 10am in the locality of the murder scene.

    The photo developer that was asked to develop a reel of film for a male he identified as Ian Bailey. He states that the person was agitated and in a hurry to develop the film, even up to the point of grabbing some negatives whilst they were still wet.

    The various news agencies stating that they were offered crime scene pictures by Bailey before Bailey was officially notified of the murder.

    The market stall holders, shop keepers, post office clerk, neighbours driving cars on the morning... All made statements of seeing them early in the morning, in a rush by all accounts...

    Either, half the rural community are guilty of perverting the course of justice, or Bailey & Jules were out and about early that morning?

    Weird case......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Ok. So the point you are making is that he should have disposed of the clothes before he went home. Fair enough. I assumed you meant in the days after the murder.

    I have no specific narrative. I am open minded about how it all went down. The rolled up clothes was a specific reply to a poster who couldn`t see how he could have driven home without contaminating the car. If he was aware he had blood on him, he knew he would contaminate the car. Jim Sheridan maintained that the killer took the time to go back up to the house and attempted to open the side door.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "All he needed to do was tell Jules in the morning that he got up in the night and left the house to do some work."

    He probably did tell her that. I`m sure he assumed that at some point during the night Jules would have realized he was out of bed. It required an explanation. Jules knew he was up but after she was arrested, she still stuck to the script and said he was in bed all night. It was only when she was told he was seen at Kealfada Bridge that she started telling the truth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,642 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It is a weird case but then... if you were the murderer, would you engage in these shenanigans?

    IN the (alleged) statement made to the Guards, the photo developer is claimed to have said:

    He said the area looked like the laneway where Ms Toscan du Plantier's body had been discovered. He said he thought the photos may have been taken at night.

    Can someone explain how the photos could have been taken at night? Bailey brought a camera to the murder???

    Is this the same photo developer who withdrew his evidence... as noted on this thread from a 2007 Mirror article:

    So there is no doubt there has been attempts to pervert the course of justice here, there is the indisputable evidence of pages deliberately ripped from the book of evidence. And now we have witnesses withdrawing statements which do not seem credible in the context of the murder...

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    You forgot Jules`s youngest daughter who stands by her statement to this day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The thing is, if he was fabricating the story, he would not have asked Jules to lie.

    He would have kept Jules out of it altogether, only to confirm he left the bed, because as you say yourself;

    " I`m sure he assumed that at some point during the night Jules would have realized he was out of bed."

    So did he get up and perhaps forgot?,

    and maybe Jules thought he was in bed all night;

    Mavbe they had trouble reading her writing;

    Arrested 12:30 pm, no solicitor until 4:30, released half past midnight.

    All this in the media glare. I wonder how they knew about the arrests, Dwyer was media savvy I hear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "Maybe they had trouble reading her writing"

    I don`t understand what your point is. If you are suggesting that the handwriting in pic 1 is Jules`s, you are mistaken. If you are suggesting that the printed statement in pic 2 is a mis-representation of the handwriting in pic 1, you are also mistaken.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I've had these thoughts about Jules as well. However would Jules really have lied for Bailey, considering all the domestic abuse she's been getting from him? I understand this domestic abuse was some time ago, but still, I find that theory hard to believe.

    Suppose Bailey did it, and Jules helped him, she drove and then disposed of and dealt with the evidence whilst Bailey cleaned himself up at the studio. Like they both decided on the spur of the moment, after the night in the pub, to kill Sophie for whatever reason or motive? It could theoretically all have happened that night. Only what motive could they have had? None, I could think of.

    There is neither evidence for that, or against that. Sophie would probably have opened the door to a man and a woman together, rather than a man alone, especially that late at night.

    It's worth a consideration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Enlighten me please, I thought it was Jules writing,

    But the printed statement in pic 2 contradicts the hand written statement one in pic 1. So how did that happen?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I don`t think pic 1 is part of her statement. It looks like a record of her initial questioning, handwritten by one of the questioners. The question and the reply are by the same hand. She initially stated that Bailey never got out of bed. But then they told her that a witness saw Bailey at Kealfada at 3 am on the night of the murder and she then admitted that he had got out of bed and that is what you have in pic 2 which is part of the statement that she signed. I dunno why the first pic is labelled "statement". Where is that taken from?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Closing this thread: it had its chance. There have been a bunch of recent issues that cropped up, putting the final nail in the coffin. Needless to say the continued bickering after the last warning & closure was bad enough; but the combination of posts from users using multiple accounts (a bannable offence TBH), to recent comments skirting the realms of questionable legality, means the discussion is being closed.

    That's all aside from the fact it has gone well beyond the remit of a discussion of the TV show, and into a generalised debate of the crime itself. If people want to continue that discussion I'm sure there are more appropriate fora on Boards, and folks are welcome to take the discussion there - debated under those fora's relative charters.



This discussion has been closed.
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