First fix of alarm cables

ULMarc · 18-10-2022 5:21pm #1

Hello, I'm planning a first fix for alarm cables. I've some questions on my mind though about some of the practical aspects.

If chasing to windows and doors is it normal to chase the cable down around the reveal? I'm a bit concerned over the bending radius of the cable as it goes around the reveal. I see some people recommending drilling up through the reveal with long 8mm drill bits. I'm not really getting the idea of where that hole is supposed to begin and end though, especially if the suggestion is to drill through the lintel.
Is the power supply 240v or 12v? Is 240v required anywhere? At the control panel, or at the sounder etc? Could it vary by manufacturer?
How many cables are too many? It seems most designs would suggest running a single cable to each sensor. Does doing this get out of hand? Would it make sense to link a few common sensors in series? I imagine it could be a bit of a mess running a cable down and back up from a window sensor? Or would you spur off to the sensor with a junction in that case?
Would you fish wires inside PVC window frames or use mini trunking? Any tips for keeping it tidy?
Is 6 core cable good enough all around? Would there any reason to consider using more or less cores anywhere?

Lenar3556 · 18-10-2022 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058268043/first-fix-of-alarm-cables

You need to get the cable to the window frame, so either the reveal needs to be chased or you drill a small hole up through the lintel at an angle aiming to exit into the void above the ceiling. Usually done with a 1Metre bit. ( You will likely still need to chase the reveal slightly to reach the frame)

All 12V - 1 x 230v supply required to panel.

You can often fish wires between openings within the frames of PVC windows. Consider running your cable to a central point on the window, installing a junction box at this point and using something like aritech DC101 contacts from this to each opening - they are about as neat as you get.

A single cable from the panel to each point is ideal. Try and avoid looping/spurring where possible.

6 core is generally used for all domestic applications. 4 core is nicer to work with, but you just have the minimum of cores, so definitely no looping to anything else if using 4 core! External bell must be 6 core.

Run a couple of spare six cores to the attic. Might be handy for future.

ULMarc · 18-10-2022 11:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763215#Comment_119763215

Junction at the window? I like the sound of that. So do you divvy out the cores to each opening? Or do you loop all openings into the one pair? And what about shock sensors, are they necessary? Do they go on their own loop? I suppose if I do as you say and run 6 core to a junction on the window then at least I, or an installer, can worry about what happens after that point to each opening.

I'm reading about tamper loops too. But I imagine they're fairly overkill on a domestic circuit where the owner's the occupant? Maybe it should go on the sounder at least, maybe not?

ULMarc · 18-10-2022 11:53pm

Oof. I just remembered I have to figure out my smokes too. I have mains powered interconnected Aico alarms. Is there a relay that can be got for connecting that to the security alarm panel?

Lenar3556 · 19-10-2022 8:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119763356#Comment_119763356

Usually several opening on one window are looped together into one pair, so running a six core leaves all options open.

Shock sensors add additional detection, one would typically be installed on the frame, either alongside or taking the place of the junction box I mentioned. Again this would tend to sit on the same pair as the openings. The control panel you use must have facility to analyse shocks - most sold in Ireland do, but you would need to check.

Everything needs to have tamper monitoring to meet the standard, but it’s not a big deal to achieve - probably the best way to do it is using what is called dual end of line. Resistors are fitted at each device and these allow the circuit to be monitored for tamper when the system is unset. Again it’s done on the same pair - so if you are running six core everywhere you really have loads of scope.

Int bell needs tamper monitoring also - if you have a six core to it you have lots!

ULMarc · 19-10-2022 10:48am

That's great. Thanks @Lenar3556. Settled my mind a lot there. Lines up with my expectations. I'm a chronically overthinking amadán.

ULMarc · 19-10-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119765942#Comment_119765942

Well I was thinking if they were zoned I'd at least be able to monitor the smokes only when I want to. Like if I'm away.

Which relay did you get? I came across this one. I know it says the purpose is for triggering external devices. But since it says the output is 24v I'm not confident it's the correct one for the job.

https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei128r-hard-wired-relay-module/

And the other reason I had my doubts is I asked my electrical wholesaler about linking them to the house alarm and they were confident it wouldn't be possible.

kirk. · 19-10-2022 5:09pm

I fitted one before that was linked to a panel

You take a 2-wire from the relay base to trigger an alarm

I'm sure there's other ways of doing it now , aico do wireless products that might do it. Would u even want to trigger the security system or receive a mobile phone alert instead I dunno what's the done thing

kirk. · 19-10-2022 5:21pm

https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei413-radiolink-panel-interface-module/

That's a module for connecting aico alarms to fire panels wirelessly , think you'd probably need 1 radiolink alarm nearby to trigger it ?

Might do the job dunno anything about it

ULMarc · 19-10-2022 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119766850#Comment_119766850

oh, that might be it. Can get a radio base from Aico that will transmit to this. Says it will take 12v-24v input. So seems like it.

kirk. · 19-10-2022 9:32pm

What's the plan when you hook it up

What do you want it to do

kirk. · 19-10-2022 9:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119765942#Comment_119765942

That was my query as they're discrete systems

Same as CO and Fire

I would have thought a text alert would be what you'd want , sure the alarms are designed to wake occupants

What do the security panels that have smoke alarms connected directly to the system do , I'm nearly sure someone told me they get a text alert

ULMarc · 19-10-2022 10:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119768457#Comment_119768457

Some panels run web servers that allow you to control them remotely now. So, if a smoke alarm were to go off you'd could know about it remotely.

But honestly, I'm not even settled on a system at the moment. My mind's too busy worrying about other renovation jobs. I'm just trying to make sure I've put the infrastructure for the alarm in place now and I can come back to it later to have something installed. I'm asking lots of questions to make sure i'm not kicking myself for missing something obvious. I don't necessarily need the smokes connected to it.

kirk. · 19-10-2022 11:19pm

There's more and better wireless solutions now so not as likely to get caught out for data phone and control of electrical stuff

Depending on house construction materials I suppose

Never liked wireless solutions myself too much to go wrong and complications setting up

ULMarc · 20-10-2022 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769595#Comment_119769595

Cool yeah. I was recommended HKC of course. Listening to people on here they'd appear to be a very common one around Ireland. I'm not mad on their subscription plan though. There's other ones like Vanderbilt that offer the remote service at no charge. And I'm sure there's other good options out there too. But distributors and installers seem to be very protective of their offerings so it's tricky to shop around.

That's why I'm going for a wired system. To keep it somewhat generic so if I were to go with a system and have problems with it, it wouldn't have been as large an investment gathering their ecosystem of wireless sensors.

ULMarc · 21-10-2022 10:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119773563#Comment_119773563

I hadn't put thought into it to be honest. But could add it if needed.

What does the GSM do for you? How does it get you around paying HKC for the use of it?

Lenar3556 · 23-10-2022 10:48pm

The Ei128r is what you want to monitor your smoke alarm installation via the intruder alarm. You only need one Ei208r assuming the smoke alarms are interconnected.

The intruder can be programmed to transmit the activation as a technical input and not sound the intruder alarm sounders in the house.

The HKC app is actually very good, the subscription, incl the SIM card is about €80 a year, but that is quite good value for what it does.

Vanderbuilt, GSD & Scantronic are others that have apps which are FOC but aren’t as popular.

kirk. · 24-10-2022 1:52am

The 128 is a basic relay model wired back to security panel with a pair

The 413 connects radiolink alarms wirelessly to security or fire panels, has a load of features dunno would u need any of them

I'm not clear if it needs the whole system radiolink or just one of Smoke and CO etc. I think it should just be one needed as radiolink to communicate with the module

It works 2-way operation, security panel can activate alarms ?

What would the security panel be doing activating the smoke alarm system

https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei413-radiolink-panel-interface-module/

Lenar3556 · 24-10-2022 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785506#Comment_119785506

The only practical reason for linking the two systems is for monitoring - to alert you if the smoke alarms activate when you are away.

It would be a one way link only - smoke alarms signal a zone on the intruder alarm, not the other way around.

The Ei128 is the way to do it - it is activated via the interconnect wire, so just one is needed to monitor all smoke alarms assuming they are all interconnected.

The 413 could achieve the same result, but it is signalled via RadioLink, which he probably wont have if he is wiring a new system. It can also take a wired input to trigger the smoke alarms via third party equipment, but I can think of no real practical application for this within the standards.

kirk. · 24-10-2022 11:41am

Ya i fitted a 128 but can't remember what it did probably the text alert

Wired is simpler always anyhow like u said

That 413 seems like massive overkill I presume it's for bigger jobs, mainly connecting to fire panels but it says security too

Ger406 · 01-10-2023 8:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119766805#Comment_119766805

Can you just wire these 128 common and normally closed straight into a zone on a Hkc intruder panel and go non end of line. Is this a volt free relay ?

kirk. · 02-10-2023 4:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121182805#Comment_121182805

It's a volt free contact the 128 , don't know anything about alarm panels

There's also the EI413 above , less wiring needed

First fix of alarm cables

Comments