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Why should I care about Climate Change while China has 43 New Coal Fired Power Stations in the works

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    When China is already producing more Carbon than the entirety of the Oecd, which is most of the modern world, it doesn't matter how it is split or presented.


    We hear people use the narrative of 25 years ago that China is the workshop for the West, yet the Oecd manufacturers vastly more than it and at a fraction of the carbon.


    Machinery such as computers, broadcasting technology, and telephones as well as transport equipment make up the largest part of Chinese exports.. Not industries noted for dirty manufacturing.


    If China didn't export anything to the West, it's carbon output would hardly change and it definitely wouldn't stop it's exponential growth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    True, the historical emissions argument is just a distraction, no willingness to do it better than the past, little willingness to avail of Western tech or knowledge to mitigate their own carbon future.


    If they only bothered with coal washing, filtration of coal plant emissions, standard in the West for 30 years, easily done, very cheap and decades old. No interest, none.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It has become impossible for any scientist to challenge what is now a religion, where contrarians are called 'deniers' - pejorative name calling that characterises centuries of persecution of millions with alternative views to Catholocism in Europe over centuries.

    You now have scientists afraid for their jobs because several have been given the boot by universities for being 'deniers'. The climate priests conspire among themselves to hide data sets, deliberately and illegally avoid complying with FOI requests, conspire to have editors of science journals replaced or gotten rid of, and this cabal peer review each others papers and generally work to promote their own truth, while suppressing any that are contrary - hence the trying to get true believers into journal editorial positions.

    The IPCC packs it's output with the signatures tea lady, the janitor, and all and sundry and then claim 10,000 scientists agree with this and have signed off on it, when only a fraction have any business doing so.

    It's a religion, not science. There have been many calls for denial to be declared illegal and for any such people to be put in prison. We are close to hauling out guillotines, sharpening their blades and oiling the slides so climate deniers can be disposed of more efficiently.

    And you talk of confirmation bias. Thanks, I only studied that back in the late 70's in reference to experiment design. Your religion is based on nothing but confirmation bias.

    There is no longer any science, as it is literally impossible far anyone anywhere to gain funding for pursuing any line of research that isn't intended to confirm and reinforce the dogma. When dissenting voices can literally lose their jobs, science is dead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    It isn't my "religion", I have no opinion on whether it is true or not. I can't really have an informed opinion on it as I have no background in climate science. I would prefer it to not be true.

    Funding has been available from the enormous fossil fuel companies to try to find evidence against climate change has it not? Climate change is the most politicised scientific theory ever. I could counter what you are saying by saying we have lots of uniformed idiots like Marjorie Taylor Green attacking it.

    Ultimately, I don't think it really matters as nothing will be done about it. Just look at the Ukraine situation, most countries would not do anything that is any way disadvantageous to them. I am just glad that here in Ireland we will get way fairly lightly, at least initially, it might even be a benefit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,464 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Keeling reported the science back in the '50s. Mann isn't also banging on about the WEF or whatever like that loony you quoted. And his hockey stick hypotheses are continually being re-verified. Unlike anything the anti-science camp says.





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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    So you don't think the medieval warm period happened? Mann was right?

    You can only verify the hypothesis by referencing the data sets, and if those are being manipulated, which they are, you will of course get the verification you seek. In the climategate email leak, the keeper of one data set said he would delete it, rather than hand it over for scrutiny under FOI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Best post I have ever read in 20 years of Boards.

    I hope you dont mind if I copy it for later use? If you'd prefer not, I won't.

    “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command”



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl




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  • Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Kurooi


    You shouldn't. Individual blame for climate change is something corporates manufactured to shift the spotlight away from themselves.

    We should support carbon taxes on them, expect better practices, and not beat ourselves up over our minute insignificant luxury of 'living'



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    There currently caning Bhutan for carbon credits. For example to be Carbon Neutral.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,918 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    you shouldn't at all.

    its the same reason no one knowns the global breakdown by country of emissions and further broken down by industry.

    as an example, what % does ireland contribute to global emissions? what % of that is via agriculture or cars or home heating or whatever else?

    the data aint there cos no one has done the research (if it is, please point me to it).

    ireland represents about .0064% of the population (7.7bn vs 4.9m). i think if we ban all cars and flights to and from it'll be the best thing for the environment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    They get around it with per capita which is completely the wrong way to do it. Because China has 1.4bn it waters down their own figures. Were we have a small population makes our figures higher. It should be total production.


    Edit. just to add.

    There is a carbon cost of 1 person in a house for example. Now being generous that could be nearly half the cost of a house of 4 people. Now if you take that in isolation that's high. But if you include them leaving he house the consume far far more carbon than 1 person would if there like for like.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,464 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Climategate, this nothingburger? https://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/


    Mann was right, of course. Again and again his conclusions are supported. It's getting warmer at a much-faster-than-normal rate due to human activity. It's as obvious as the nose on your face. What's sad is, when Gore did his movie in 2000, there might have been a chance to do something about it. Now, it's rearranging deck-chairs on the Titanic. Keep denying away though, it'll make you feel better when you're living in your oceanfront property in Alice Springs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    To the best of my knowledge Gore did not buy property in Alice Springs, in 2003 he bought coastal property. Another big promoter US President Obama owns at least two coastal properties (1,2). Gore sold his TV investment to an oil fiefdom (Al Jazeera). As is typical of US democrats, they benefit financially from their hypocrisy. Gores propaganda film was challenged in a British court, its factual inaccuracies must be declared before being shown to school children in the UK. They stopped showing the film.

    In addition to the hockey stick fraud. Michael Mann initiated a libel case against Canadian professor Tim Ball (RIP), but refused to engage and as a consequence Mr. Ball and his wife who were retired ran down their pension savings. The case was dismissed with prejudice and the court awarded costs to Mr. Ball. Mr. Mann has never paid up. You won't find him crossing the US border to Canada.

    What ClimateGate did was expose academics pettiness, turf protection, manipulation, defiance of freedom of information, lost or destroyed data and attempts to blacklist critics or skeptics of the catastrophic anthropogenic global warming narrative.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,464 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Your knowledge comes from Putin's propaganda. No surprise here. Mann achieved his ends, Ball is a lying discredited crank funded by the global warming denial industry. Are you getting your cut?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    They have found evidence for the medieval warm period in lake bottom sediments in Australia, NZ and the US and in tree ring data in Canada. It also shows up in the very ice-core data sets climatoligists like to refer to so frequently:

    Mann is a charlatan. There is overwhelming evidence for the medieval warm period. The fact that he erased it from his hockey stick graph is proof that the data used to plot it has been heavily manipulated, so making it a nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭Shapey Fiend


    I think its fair to say we turned off our coal production too early but we were expecting to have cheap oil/gas for a little while longer. China is going to go nuclear in the long term but as they've got such a gigantic operation over there I suspect they needed coal as a stepping stone.

    If we're going to go green, and avoid nuclear power, we were going to have to do it eventually. Having to import all our energy is going to get more expensive in the long run. Building the worlds largest Synchronous Conpensator at moneypoint is ambitious but should pay off in the long run much like Ardnacrusha did in the early days.

    Even if you think the harm of carbon emissions is overblown (I'm sort of in that camp) in the long term it'd nice to be less exposed to the whims of international markets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,464 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    co2science.org? Really? Andy May and Clive Best?

    Stop denying what's in front of your nose. It's getting warmer at an accelerated pace due to human activity since the Industrial Revolution took hold. This shouldn't be surprising. Mann is no charlatan, heck, here's another source refuting the screechers about Climategate.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,395 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I believe that worldwide there are more than 1000 new coal fired power stations either planned or under contruction.

    If we're looking at 30 to 40 years of operation for each of those, I'd suggest, anybody of us can forget thinking of electrical vehicles, wind generation and any new taxes the various EU governments are trying to impose on us.

    Fact is, it's NOT aviation, it's coal. The world needs to move away from coal and that at the earliest convenience. Coal is more than half of the CO2 emissions.

    If the EU can't even run the single currency, the Euro, how is the world supposed to police CO2 emissions especially coal in 3rd world countries?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    That page I linked to references 21 published papers for the data it presents, two of which were published in Nature, and you haven't checked a single one of them or even looked at the list, you just wave your hand and declare it to be nonsence because It's a site you don't like, written by people you don't like. Instead of dealing with the facts presented, you resort to trite dismissiveness based personalities and infered ad hominems.

    I could literally spend several hours finding original papers presenting evidence for the mideval warm period and referencing them directly, but there's no point as your lazy mental behaviours don't warrant the effort. Pearls before swine, as the say.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    China is currently planning to build more nuclear capacity than renewables, given their differing capacity factors. But they are still going to build out more coal plants than those combined. The synchronous compensator isn't something to be admired, it's just something necessary when you have awful variable energy sources. It's like praising a metal plate and screws in a leg holding and strengthening a badly shattered bone, when an unbroken healthy bone is what most people would rather have.

    Renewables are vastly more variable than any market. Basing a grid wholely on their vagaries is a dire strategy, and vastly more expensive than the nuclear option. There was a 6 week lull in the wind last autumn. The amount of energy storage necessary to fill such gaps, apart from not existing in any country, is going to add enormous costs, so enormous that nobody can put a figure on them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    What no mention of Mr. Koch (RIP)? This time round President Putin is on your side. It is the policies you advocate, which has ultimately led to President Putin’s control of European energy. Greens miss the point that if the gas cannot be extracted locally, it must be imported from elsewhere, there is no other way to keep the modern electrical grid stable after the addition of so many unreliable generation sources.

    How cheap energy was killed by Green lies and Russian propaganda

    The Centre for European Studies found that the Russian government has invested $95 million in NGOs campaigning against shale gas. Russia Today television ran endless anti-fracking stories, including one that “frackers are the moral equivalent of paedophiles”. The US Director of National Intelligence stated that “RT runs anti-fracking programming … reflective of the Russian Government’s concern about the impact of fracking and US natural gas production on the global energy market and the potential challenges to Gazprom’s profitability.” Pro-Russian politicians such as Lord Truscott (married to a Russian army colonel’s daughter) made speeches in parliament against fracking.

    The Former Chancellor Who Became Putin’s Man in Germany

    Gerhard Schröder, who is paid almost $1 million a year by Russian-controlled energy companies, has become a pariah. But he is also a symbol of Germany’s Russia policy.

    Foreign Firm Funding U.S. Green Groups Tied to State-Owned Russian Oil Company

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭Shapey Fiend


    Well I figure offshore wind in the Atlantic, while eyewateringly expensive to construct, will be pretty continuous. Whether hydrogen storage of energy is still a little pie in the sky I'm not sure. Certainly onshore wind is variable enough that you've always got to have fossil fuel backup making further construction of it sort of unnecessary. I've always thought nuclear was the most sensible option but its got a bit of an image problem so its a non starter anywhere other than China where people don't get to have an opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    There are issues with the Atlantic Storms wind to strong. No power with to much wind or to little. And If I recall the huge ones need a lot of wind to just run.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    A certain minimum windspeed, and yes maximums to avoid catastrophic failures.

    Nuclear's problem isn't just image. South Carolina for example, our politicians love to boast about our strong portfolio of nuclear energy, but they're not very proud of the waste and would love to keep exporting it to SRS Georgia or to the deep storage facility in Nevada. The politicians speaking to this love telling me how safe it is to store in Nevada - but when I asked them in a back and forth, would you support an equally safe storage facility here in our upstate, they didn't say a word. If it were truly safe, the answer should have been simple and fast. But the people who chair these energy committees apparently have a good idea how risky and dangerous the management of this stuff is, hench making it someone else's problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    A bit more to it than just China: https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide.aspx

    In addition, several other countries including the Netherlands, France, Poland and Czech Republic are all in the decision making phase before ordering.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Offshore Atlantic wind turbines will not be continuous. Capacity factor varies hour by hour and starts at 0 and peaks vary with the weather fronts passing the country (look at the month data). The chart below is from this dataset (excel) it shows the average capacity factor over a year. The Wind energy Ireland lobby group will advertise higher capacity factors. Solar only has a capacity factor of 11% in Ireland and is non-existent in Winter months (short day lengths, cloud cover) That is why the system has to be backed up with gas generation plants that can rapidly respond to changing conditions.


    For 2 hours on March 25th 2022 there was no wind in Ireland, the wind generators consumed power (-2 MW). This weather system affected much of North Western Europe, Britain and Denmark wind turbine generation was not doing much as the same time.



    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Is that actual generation or generation capacity?



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