Shared Parking

phelimb · 24-10-2022 1:07am #1

Mods - please feel free to move this to the correct forum if needed...

I'm living in a small development of 8 houses with shared parking for maybe 12 cars. My understanding (and that of the neighbours) is that the parking is pretty much free for all - no dedicated parking spots etc. and we all just park in the same place every day and all is good. There isn't enough spots for all cars but a few folk with 2/3 cars just park one outside on the road with no quibbles. And note that there are no lines/markings in the parking area.

Anyway, one house was sold recently and the new owner is claiming rights to park two cars directly outside their house - via a solicitors letter delivered to the other 7 houses saying its private property and if you park there you will be prosecuted or whatever...

So, I'm thinking the original planning application and decision should have some details on the parking situation? The development is 25-30 years old so any ideas on how I can get my hands on the original details (all the online information does not seem to go back that far).

Interested in peoples thoughts on the situation also but again to the Mods - seeing as a solicitors letter has been issued if this can't/shouldn't be discussed here feel free to close the thread...

endacl · 24-10-2022 1:12am

I'd be happy to write you "randomer on the internet's" letter stating you can park in any space.

Would carry the same weight as the solicitor's letter you received.

Del2005 · 24-10-2022 3:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058268759/shared-parking

Keep parking in the spots and wait for them to start the prosecution.

If you have access to your deeds it will say what the parking allocation is.

muffler · 24-10-2022 8:12am

You can request details of the original development from the local planning dept. You may need a letter from your solicitor confirming you are the owner of one of the houses before they release any copies of the relevant planning documents but ring them first and they will explain all. Your next step would be contacting PRAI to see how title was registered ie. Were parking spaces registered with each plot.

The other option is to round up the troops and engage a solicitor to work for the 7 households and share the costs equally. But as I said you could do most of this yourself. Planning search fees and PRAI search and maps could cost around 150 - 200 Euro.

muffler · 24-10-2022 8:15am

Forgot to add, you can have a look for free at PRAI mapping on www.landddirect.ie

Mellor · 24-10-2022 8:58am

It’s nothing to do with planning. And entirely to do with the title. If the title they have just purchased include the spot, they they are private property. If they do not, they don’t.

Reply to solicitors letter and ask to see the deeds that they have sighted in order to make such a claim. Make them do the work.

Is there any common property or management company? A strata plan or bye laws would often include the plans of common and private areas.

muffler · 24-10-2022 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785958#Comment_119785958

In certain circumstances it has plenty to with planning so the best advice for the OP is start at the start.

Mellor · 24-10-2022 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119786142#Comment_119786142

Happy for you to suggest an example. But even if the parking is described a certain way in a planning documents. It doesn’t supercede title deeds, or even imply ownership.

If the new owner is making a claim. Legally the onus is on him. Ask him to produce evidence.

muffler · 24-10-2022 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119786855#Comment_119786855

I could provide a couple of examples where planning documents would need to be looked at but that's just going to take this thread completely off topic and would be of little or no help to the OP. A title to a property can be legally challenged and as neither of us are solicitors or barristers there's nothing to be gained from furthering the discussion in that regard.

But we have both given opinions to the OP so he/she can decide what way they want to progress the matter on their end.

phelimb · 25-10-2022 12:50am

Lads, don't fall out on my account but thanks for the advice so far.

I met one of the neighbours today and he actually had copies of a few documents that may prove handy (he had a dispute with a different neighbour (from outside this development) a few years back and got these documents somehow).

One was from the council which stipulated various conditions to the planning application - one condition noted that 12 parking spaces were to be accommodated for in accordance to a particular drawing. The drawing in question was from the original planning application and does indicate 12 spaces but no reference to who parks where. Another drawing he had (OS map I think it was) shows the parking area highlighted as a 'right of way'. I know what a right of way is but not sure what it means in reference to a private parking area.

@muffler , I looked at landdirect and only the house whose owner is claiming the parking spots is registered - the other 7, including mine, are not. According to the map on landdirect their property extends from the front of the house through the parking area to the rear boundary of the site (a copy of this drawing was included in the solicitor's letter we all received). Maybe I'm being a bit cynical but the previous owner of that house was a solicitor and I'm guessing they registered it prior to the sale. How much proof would they have had to give to register the site including the parking spaces?

To @Mellor's point, is the drawing from landdirect enough for them to prove ownership or what other evidence would be required. I'm thinking I'll just sit tight and do nothing unless the neighbour in question forces some action by calling the guards or tries to prosecute one of us for trespass if we park in one of the spaces they are claiming...

P.S. neither myself or the other neighbour I spoke with today have the title deeds - the bank still has them unfortunately - I can request a copy if need be, but neither of us remember any mention of parking spaces on the deeds.

Lumen · 25-10-2022 4:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119785796#Comment_119785796

The other option is to round up the troops and engage a solicitor to work for the 7 households and share the costs equally

Is this even an option? AFAIK multi-party litigation is quite unusual in Ireland.

Might be a question for the legal forum.

Personally I'd consider a solicitors letter "shots fired" and engage one of my own, not least because land law is terrifying.

Peregrinus · 25-10-2022 5:47am

The fact that somebody owns property does not mean that it might not be subject to rights in favour of neighbouring property owners, or even public rights. So it's entirely possible that each house owns a strip of the parking area, but that all those strips are subject to the shared right of all the owners to park. The only way you are going to get a conclusive answer to this is to lay your hands on a copy of the title deeds and examine them, or have them examined by a solicitor.

Planning documents are much more likely to show that a particular area is to be used for parking than they are to show who is to use it. And, even if they do show who is to use it, planning documents typically show how things ought to have been set up, which may not be how they are actually set up.

Paul Kiernan · 25-10-2022 11:08am

Your new neighbour is getting off to a great start in fitting in in his new environment!

Somebody must own the common area of your estate including all the spaces. Somebody must be insuring them/maintaining them.

It is possible that the original developer allocated 2 spaces to some houses and one to others but that should be documented somewhere. However, even if it is, it doesn't change the fact that other people may have attained so-called "squatter rights" over the last quarter century.

Also, the PRAI, who control landdirect, are notoriously reluctant to map areas without comprehensive proof that the claimant is entitled to it!

Mellor · 25-10-2022 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119787650#Comment_119787650

You don’t need to give an actual example, identifying any person or property. Just reference the mechanism you are thinking off. It’s my view Planning does not impact ownership, and is therefore not relevant. Happy to alter that view if there’s reason to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789720#Comment_119789720

In short no it’s not enough. The drawing on land direct is a registration, it doesn’t convey all of the potential information about the title. It could be, for example, private land with a legal right of way for all other owners. Who share similar rights of way on their titles (one example).

Its possible it is wholly private land. It’s also possible that the new has been misled by the land direct drawing (prehaps intentionally by the seller)

I’d consider all od those more likely than the chance he’s pulling a fast one.

Shared Parking

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